I am re typing this because my first message seems to be lost.

Tim:
How would you rate the following Chinese arts as grappling arts?
1. Schuai Jiou
2. Mongolian Wrestling
3. Eagle Claw Kung Fu
5. Cheng Ting Hua style Ba Gua

Whas Chang Tung Shang as good a fighter as many of the magazine articles and books portray him

Jay,
There are four branches of Shuai Jiao. Beijing style, Tianjin style, Baoding style and Mongolian style. Basically, the techniques of Mongolian style wrestling are based somewhat more on strength than the Chinese styles. Beijing and Tianjin styles are very similar and Baoding style is known as "Kuai Jiao," or "fast wrestling" as the emphasis in on throwing the opponent the moment you make contact with him.
All of these styles are very effective wrestling styles, their weakness is their lack of ground fighting techniques.
Cheng Ting Hua style Ba Gua Zhang also includes excellent throwing and grappling techniques, Cheng Ting Hua was an expert in Baoding Kuai Jiao.
Chang Dong Sheng was, by all accounts, one of the greatest Chinese fighters of his time, and certainly the top Chinese wrestler.

Tim,

Thanks for the information on Chinese wrestling and Cheng Ting Hua Ba Gua.

With regards to Eagle Claw,which I have never seen in person, much is made of its use of grappling and chin na. Is it an effective grappling art?

Jay

Jay,
Eagle Claw includes the "108 Chin Na" techniques as part of the style, which also includes strikes and throws. The Chin Na techniques are standing joint locks, and while they may be effective, I wouldn't classify Eagle Claw as a 'grappling' style in the same category as Shuai Jiao.

"A GRAPPLE A DAY KEEPS THE DOCTOR AWAY"

Hello everyone. I have a question for you Tim. Since you compete in grappling contests I was wondering to what extent do you feel that the sensitivity training of Tai Ji helps you while grappling?

Hi Andrew,
I think the sensitivity training in the Chinese Internal Arts helps quite a bit, especially with entries and keeping the center of balance from being controlled by the opponent.
In addition, I've scored quite a few takedowns with Ba Gua Zhang based throws.

I have found so far that wing Chun is an awsome tool against stronger people due to the Sensitivity. yet I wonder if the china followes the same reasoning? I usualy am un able to useit because im not strong enough.

Tim,

I just got your book on Chinese Wrestling. I love it.

Just get out there and have fun with your friends. Don't permit ego.

sifu/TIM
i was shocked by your deep knowledge(i love your effortless throws appendix) and i would like to ask you about weather you think joint locking have apart in actual street fighting?you know in wing tsun we preffer striking!!adrenaline effect help in crowding oppenent(putting pressure)while bruce lee confirm that chi na must be applied accidently(without planning)
by the way i read practical CHI NA
THANKS

I spent several years learning joint locking from Traditional JJ. In my opinion, the way it's taught and practiced are ineffective against "aggressive" ressistance. It works well for "passive" resistance.

The most effective use of locks usually comes when the shoulders, spine or hips are secured...on the ground, in my opinion.

BA I agree 100%! I bounced for over 6 years where I was not permitted to strike in any fashion. I tried 100's of times for various, basic, Chin Na techniques in a multitude of scenarios. I can honestly say I never, NEVER, got a clean joint manipulation! I could not set them up the way I would want (with strikes), and besides choking techniques, and various takedowns, did not score a damn thing!
Jake

qin na techniques require a certain amount of sensitivity in the arms to work against resistance. This is where I find people have trouble learning. The arms should be relax and springy-like. With proper body structure and mechanics, the power should come from the legs/stepping. Too many people try to use arm strength. This goes against CMA's principle of using the entire body.

I agree that without strikes it can be difficult to execute, but not impossible. Let me use wing chun as an example. Wing chun has a technique called pak da where you simultaneously block and strike at the same time. With proper use of the ground and body structure, the block is very jarring and can upset the attacker's balance. Substitute a palm to the face to distract and obscure the attacker's sight. Your legs also come into play by stepping/tripping on the attacker's foot/leg. All this serve to really unbalance the attacker which is the perfect time to use qin na.

Omar,

Most standing Chin Na techniques are extremely hard to apply in a real fight with a (sober) resisting opponent. If Chin Na type techniques were high percentage and relatively easy to apply, you'd see them used often in MMA events. In reality, you rarely see any type of standing joint lock applied at all.

As Backarcher pointed out, joint locks, chokes and other types of Chin Na techniques are much easier applied as they are in Judo, BJJ or submissions grappling, with your opponent controlled by you on the ground.

Having said that, I have succesfully applied the outside wrist twist (kote-gaeshi) the standing underarm arm bar (Ude-hishighi-waki-gatame), the double wrist lock (Kimura) from the body lock position and the occasional figure four armbar many times sparring with skilled opponents. They are still lower percentage, in my opinion than compared with taking the opponent down and then applying the locks.

Aoki has a savage waki-gatame!

Yes indeed. Showcased at 5 minutes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GKneOIyXyA

Next time Eddie is in town he may be bringing Aoki with him to train!!!!!! That would be KILLER!!! One of my favorites fighters!
Jake

oh thanks to you all
i myself use many chi na tech. but what without settig for it .
sifu/tim
so do you think that flowing in chi na is right during a fight?
thanks

Omar,

I think flowing with what is happening is always right in a fight, and flowing cannot be limited to one type of technique.

i am with you,thanks