Tim,
I have recently started training in BJJ after over 20 years in the Chinese martial arts. Although, as you say, it is similar to Taiji in its emphasis on non resistance, leverage over brute force etc, it occurred to me that it is different in one very fundamental respect. In the martial arts as I practise them, one attempts to be 'in the moment', the mind is ultimately not planning or anticipating the opponent. Correct response (after a lot of training) becomes spontaneous. From my beginner perspective on BJJ it seems that it is more strategic, techniques being planned often several moves ahead. Is this because of the lack of strikes? In a MMA type of competition I would suspect that somebody who was a 'ground and pound' type of fighter would have the advantage over a BJJ fighter (assuming equal skill levels) because he could 'spoil' the game plan of the grappler and achieve a submission if one became available, but without trying to force or set one up. In my Chinese martial arts, I am of the opinion that a Chin Na should never be chased or forced, rather 'taken if offered', usually after a strike. If this is the case, then BJJ is useful as a kind of 'horizontal push hands' exercise, but a real fight with striking would be quite different.
Are groundfighting and ground grappling two very different skills?

Stick with it long enough and you will find that the correct response in BJJ/submission grappling becomes spontaneous as well. The longer you train, the more in tune you become to opportunities that are presented by your opponent - without having to plan for it. It becomes a feeling thing (I believe what is called Ting Jing in TMA). Good luck.

It is commonly known that in order to be effective in battle an efficient martial artist must aquire four basic fighting techniques: kicking (ti), punching (da), wrestling (shuai), and Qin Na (na).
Technically speaking wrestling was designed to deal with kicking and punching, Qin na was created to cope with wrestling, and kicking and punching are used against Qin Na. You can see that these four categories mutually support and and also conquer each other. So mastery of all four categories is needed to be a proficient martial artist.
All of these categories exist in Tai Ji and every real Chinese martial art. Tai Ji's push hands looks more like wrestling than punching and kicking (Its wrestling is contained in pushes,take downs and throws mainly) andI mention this so not to be misunderstood when I say, Tai Ji has no groundwork I do not mean it has no wrestling.
The priciples to all of these techniques work on the ground and are exacty the same with BJJ.
The principles of the mindset and strategy are too.
"mind-body unity" "ground sense" "youv'e got to be able to do your techniques without thinking about them constantly""train with all different guys and use the internal principles that are correct, don't be bound by some style"
are things I'm learning from Tim
But mainly I am learning that when I go to whatever or wherever I do the same things- variations on a theme; and the theme is, the principles.
I do not have a different mind or a different body to bring to every different style just one. I use the same stance, same mindset, same stategy.
I experience and use the similarities and do not look for the differences.
And I have discovered that all these arts are more alike than different.
So bring your 20 years of Chinese martail arts to the ground the laws of physics do not change nor do the rules of anatomy and physiology.
with all my best intentions

Thanks for your input, guys. I am sure that the correct response in BJJ will become spontaneous after a lot more practise, and I appreciate that the principles of all martial arts are the same at heart. Sparring with several MMA fighters has assured me that I can use my Chinese martial arts princciple in wrestling and groundfighting,too. Its just that my BJJ teacher (who is a gold medalist at the world championships in Rio, so I asume that he knows what he's talking about!) tells me that his mind is always several moves ahead when he is playing jujitsu. Of course, he is free to spontaneously adapt and flow his technique, however he always aims to be controlling you and forcing your next move. This works brilliantly, of course, but my concern is that this would not be possible when strikes are added, because the whole thing becomes simply too fast and spontaneous for that kind of planning. Taiji says that fundamentally one must 'give oneself up and follow the opponent', and this seems at odds with the idea of always controlling, thinking ahead etc. I know I'm too much of a novice at BJJ to criticise, but watching recent UFC matches where the strikers seem to dominate on the ground, has made me think that if all arts are ultimately the same,then the correct mindset must be the same, too. Perhaps I am confusing the 'sport' with self defence, but if the two are really so different, one ought not to spent too much time on sport type grappling if one's goal is self defence?

In a real fight with striking against a BJJ fighter I like to "spoil" his game with a 9mm pistol.
But hey that just me

BJJ sport training is designed to prepare and enhance a fighters success in real combat. Positons in sport BJJ that are awarded the greatest points (i.e. back mount and front mount) are those positions that are most advantageous in a real fight. Of course there are some techniques that aren't going to transalte well into an actual fight. That's where having a good teacher is essential and why Tim is so highly regarded. In general, the plan in both a street fight and a sport jiu jitsu match is the same - secure a tactical advantage through superior position and than capitalize on that superior position by securing a submission (or defeat through striking).

With regard to your teacher always thinking several moves ahead - this is not conscious at his level but more a function of efficiency. It's true that he is several moves ahead, but it comes without having to think about it at a high level. It's analogous to two people having to get from point A to point B. Your teacher has been trained to take a straight line approach while those with less acumen don't know the most efficient way to get there. Often taking a circuitous route and giving a valuable advantage to the other.

David,

Glen has already summed it up clearly. The rules of sport BJJ are purposely designed to encourage the fighter to constantly seek the advantageous position for real fights, whether strikes are allowed or not. This is one of the primary reasons the scoring is very different from other sport grappling styles.


Bob,

You said:
"In a real fight with striking against a BJJ fighter I like to "spoil" his game with a 9mm pistol."

With this strategy (as I'm sure you are always armed), why do you practice martial arts at all?

Yes I did say i "like" to bla bla bla
anyway the 9mm is agreat anti-terrorist and even good battle field weapon- and thats what martial arts are, battlefield arts?
any way the 9mm is part of the secret teachings of BOB STYLE TAI JI and also part of KODOKAN GOSHIN JUTSU and a basic modern military issue.
but any way that does not answer why do I practice martial arts at all, thats one hell of a good question and the only answer I have is because I'm a burnt out old loser with nothing better to do but get baked and brawl.

It looks like the Humor Stork missed someone's chimmy.

It may have been on target and then the humor bundle fried in the fireplace.

In a real fight against a 9mm, I like to "spoil" his game with a 7.62x54mm Dragunov, but hey, that's just me.

Glen and Tim,
Food for thought, thank you.
David.

Straight, Back, and Side is an excellent combination for destroying ground fighter attacks. Take note, if you do not practice this as much as a ground fighter practices and trains their take down methods, your done. Hince, the old saying its easyer to say then do.

Late to this thread but Kenneth made a much better case for the battlefield than would 9mm.

Going armed with a handgun is meaningless if you do not have the skills to control position and gain the advantage in order to access and deploy the weapon. Try that with zero grappling skill when pinned to the ground beneath a skilled grappler - or while a skilled striker repeatedly hammers you and you try to draw your weapon.

The question to someone who carries a firearm is not "why do you study martial arts?" it is "why DON'T you study martial arts?" In civil life the majority of lethal encounters occur within seven feet. MANY of them involve empty hand combat and weapon retention issues prior to firearms becoming involved, or begin at bad breath distance with a firearm jammed in your ribs or throat.

If you think a handgun is the antidote to a close contact situation like this, or to a skilled grappler, you are correct only if you already have the weapon in hand and you are aware of the threat before the fight begins. AND you assume your rounds will actually stop him.

Most firefights occur in a 12 foot radious

get position on that speeding bullet while closing the gap

sure when fighting a gun beat the bullet and you win
I guess your grappling is at a level to take on a 9mm so all I have to say is have fun,

but isn't that why Marine Corps bootcamp spend 6 weeks on marksmanship and 3 days on hand to hand, because they understand the modern battlefield?

Tai Chi Bob must be a marine getting ready to go to war.

I am underqualified to be one of

the the few

the proud

the poor and ignorant
The Food Stamp Military