As a result of things that people have said on this board, as well as things I have read elsewhere, I have started thinking about the wrestling aspects of traditional internal Chinese martial arts. And it got me to wondering if certain common MMA wrestling moves are present in the forms of some traditional Chinese internal arts.

For example:

Single leg takedown; the version where you have some tie up, over-under, double unders, and then you drop straight down, get the opponents knee in the crux of your arm, your head in his ribs and then dump him. Is that move in Yang taiji or xingyi?

Double leg takedowns; the version where either with or without a penetration step, you get the backs of both of his knees and with your shoulder or head either dump him straight back or sideways). Is this in Yang taiji or xingyi?

Body locks; the version with either high double unders or low (around his hips) and then you basically dump him by either a hip heist or by spinning him backwards or forwards (i.e. a kind of cloths lining him) Is this in Yang taiji or xingy?

I realize of course that all these things are in shuai jiao and I guess (although I do not know the details) that Cheng style pakua has, because of its shuai jiao roots, some or all of these three things but I wondered if xingyi and Yang taiji also has them within any of their traditional forms.

I also realize that regardless of whether xingyi or yang taiji forms have these moves that in a combat directed school singles, doubles and body locks are going to be taught if for no other reason than to show the xingyi student how to defend against them.

What do you all think?

Take care,
Brian

Hey Brian,

Xingyiquan has a head inside single leg takedown, the movements are in the "Swallow" form. Xingyiquan also has a double leg that turns the corner much like Western wrestling, the "Snake" form.

The traditional Yang Taijiquan includes A standing double leg in the "Cross Hands" form.

Xingyiquan also has a number of techniques from the overhook position, including ankle picks and a turning forward throw much like the Taiotoshi or Body Drop of Judo.

I also learned to wrap up the opponent in a tight bodylock-type position in Taijiquan, but I was never taught to lock the hands together in grips like Western wrestling.

Tim
Can you explain the single leg from Swallow please? Maybe I am spacing it, but I cannot remember one???
BTW guys I have an article coming out in the next issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine on this very subject; throws in Xing Yi. Tim helped with both the review of the manuscript as well as some photos of him tossing my ass around. To the best of my (and Tims) knowledge this is the first english language (possibly the only one in Chinese as well???) article to ever deal with the subject! I am quite honored to be the first, but a bit befuddled why no one has written one in the past considering their are many other teachers much more qualified than I to write about it. Oh well, I hope you all enjoy it!

Thanks
Jake

Near the end of the form, there is a move called "Three Basins Fall to the Ground" (San Pan Luo Di). You pick the ankle and push the hip for the single leg.

I'm looking forward to the article.

Hi Tim,
Thanks for taking the time to give a rundown on this. Hope all is well with you and your family.

Jake (and Tim), that will be a super article. When you say "the next edition" that will be the Nov/Dec one right? That magazine makes it here to Taiwan (along with Inside Kung Fu, Black Belt, Grappling and two British mags) so I will be sure to get a copy.

take care,
Brian

I just love this board.

Being a Yang Family Practitioner that experiments with the postures (forms) in application. Some shuai jiao uses I have found for a few of the postures from the Yang Chen Fu 108 & Chen Man Ching 37.
First I must say 1 principle 10,000 techniques.

"Slantingly Flying" as a close line, Aikido type "Heaven & earth " throw.
"Snake creeps down" as a fireman's carry,shoulder wheel kata garuma.
My favorites in true gentleness are the "carry Tiger to mountain" as a "uki O-toshi" or floating drop and reverse the same move in "high pat on horse" manner to execute "Sumi Otoshi" a corner drop.
When I follow through with this "high pat on Horse" with walking to the outside I then am able to use the leg for a modified "O-Soto Gari/Garuma/Otoshi" or outside leg trip.
I justify a shoulder carry- "Ipon seonagi" with the principle in "Fair Lady works the shuttle"
I have also stretched the "Tai Otoshi" body drop idea as a reverse application of "Press"

Basically I learn applications and then realize oh that principle is taught in this or that posture.
If Yang Family Tai Chi had ground work I might justify "roll back" as a Kamura or something.

I do not know if any of these make sense to others
I know they make form practice funner for me.

Thanks Tim, I know that one, just forgetting •••• left and right!
Brian
Indeed that is the issue it should be in. Not for another month or so. I look forward to your constructive criticism.
It really surprises me the number of people out there that argue that Xing Yi and Taiji contain few throws. Perhaps I am biased (look at my teachers) but I see more throws/sweeps/takedowns in these arts then anything. IT only makes sense to me, but hey what do I know.
Jake

I loved a board once. And all I got out of it was splinters.

Sounds like your board was just knot hole

it was afterwards.

Tim,
I wonder could you please explain the origin of the name 'San Pan Lou Di' that you mentioned. What are the 'three basins' referring to?
Just for interest: My teacher used to step forwards into the 'cross hands' form as a double leg application. In the Yang form you perform the move whilst shifting the weight backwards, and that makes the application difficult. I have also seen 'needle at sea bottom' used as a shoulder throw, and the lotus sweeping kick aimed at the legs, whilst the arms pull the opponents upper body in the opposite direction as a takedown.