www.clinch.tv

Cross posting this from another forum. This book is right up the alley of Tim's no-gi throwing stuff:

If you are at all interested in clinchfighting, this book offers a wide variety of clinch based tactics. Written by a former Judo World Champion and Olympic Bronze Medallist, among many other accomplishments, and a former National Collegiate and Pan Am champ.

But it is all "no gi" Judo.

Judo has a different approach and "feel" than wrestling, though they share a lot of similar techniques. You don't see a lot of shots or suplexes in Judo, rather more combinations of forward throws and footsweeps. Judoka tend to stay more upright than wrestlers as well. This approach is actually originally based on the Judoka's taking striking into consideration, based on its old school jujutsu roots. The striking element never did make it into competitive Judo.

Many people who don't train Judo tend to think that it is a totally gi-dependant throwing art. This is basically true of its standard competitive element. Most Judoka focus solely on competition Judo, against other Judoka, and they work gi based throws primarily.

But many J Judo throws are entirely do-able without the gi. The clinching strategy is a little different, but everything else is pretty much the same. In many of the highest percentage throws, the gi is not needed at all.

This book exemplifies that approach. No-gi based Judo throwing appears in this book. There are chapters showing variations of high percentage Leg Trips, Forward Throws, Leg Sweeps, Leg Picks, Pick Ups, Rear Takedowns, and Armlock Takedowns offered, as well as a chapter each on Defenses and Partner Training methods.

The book starts with a chapter on Holds and Stances which demonstrates a variety of commonly seen clinch holds. The throws in the book are shown off of these holds, showing variations sometimes of the same or similar throws from different clinch positions.

Transition to ground control is included for most of the throws.

Included as well are throws from against the "cage," or, any wall or solid object like a car.


The book is titled "Clinch Fighting for Mixed Martial Arts." I honestly feel it would be better titled "Clinch Fighting for Submission Grappling and Self Defense." No striking is included (though certain strategies vis-a-vis striking are mentioned, and one throw versus an opponent kneeing you is shown.) I would place it as an excellent companion book to Royler Gracie's Submission Grappling book, showing the throws he does, plus many more and variations thereof, with the main demonstrator being a world class judo man.

It is light on written content, after a brief intro and description of basic clinch and throwing strategies, it jumps very quickly into technique demonstrations.

I believe the value for self defense is also quite high, some of these variations are throws I have used for subject control in LE situations. Many throws shown are with arm control, controlling both of the opponent's arms or a primary hand. The armlock takedowns are the primary ones that work when doing force on force weapon stuff.

In that light I would call it a great companion work to Greg Thompson's H2H book we have recently discussed at TPI, and I find many of these throws preferable to some of the takedowns shown in that book.

One can only PRAY that a DVD will be coming out soon!

FYI TPI (Total Protection Interactive) is the other forum I posted it at....

Seems like everyone is putting out a book on the clinch. But $37 is a bit steap!! Hatmakers is only $13!
Kit do you have Swains yet?
Thanks
Jake

Thanks. Good book.

Swain is Olympic level Judo. Jefferson has trained with world class wrestlers and Judokas.
Hatmaker is just OK!

It's a totally different market- I mean, WHO THE HELL WANTS TO LEARN HOW TO MAKE HATS?

Bob#2

Archer
I understand. Trust me I am no huge fan of Hatmaker, but when a book is approaching $40 I have to wonder. So you have it? Good buy?
Thanks
Jake

I am a fan of Hatmaker. Not huge, but I respect his work and have lots of his material. I just know at an olympic level you've tested your skills against the best. Hatmaker has not. I have some of his clinch dvds and it's just ok.

My book should be in any day now. I've been wanting a good Judoka and wrestler to create some clinch material for years. I'd love to do it, but I don't have the credentials. I'll soon see if the book is worth it.

Jake-

I do, I wrote this review. : )

I have heard good things about Hatmaker's book, and would like to check it out. People whose opinions I respect like it.

I must confess, though, I am in the "what has he done?" camp. Hatmaker's is probably good info, but when you compare an unknown entity with a man proven at the World level in a clinch based art/sport, you have to wonder what kind of insights may have been missed by those without the track record.

Exactly the reason Tim's word is much more valuable than virtually ***ANY*** "internal" martial artist out there on applying principles in a "live" combative format - though on plenty of websites and forums there is no shortage of completely unproven people who delight in telling the rest of us what they can do.

You can walk the walk or you talk the talk, (or would that be "type the type" or "post the post?"

Very, very few do both.

Thanks Kit! How many pages? The photo's pretty clear and concise?
Cheers
Jake

Jake

263 pages, and the pics are very clear and concise. B+W.

Just got my book and love it! I'm very critical of "clinch" material and this is thorough!

I wonder where this clinch/ no-gi experience is coming from...

Swain is influential in the Judo community mostly do to his olympic level participation and his current dedication to the San Jose program and his Judo specific products like Tatami and Gis etc.

I respect him immensely, and have some of his judo DVDs, but I must admit that I am surprised to hear that he has this MMA No-Gi product out... my first reaction is to the effect of 'where'd that come from?"

I felt the same way Jason. Great point!

I read Chuck's bio and saw that he worked a lot with Russian wrestlers. That won me over to buy the book.

I got the book and it's actually good. It's like a no-gi version of "Best Judo".

My understanding is this...
Principles are concrete. The difference between throwing someone, clinching someone etc. with or without a gi are minimal. IN throwing the grips will be the major difference, but when you talk about head and arm control (or clinching) it is all pretty similar.
Thanks Kit and Archer for the reviews. When I get a few bucks I will have to check it out. Is this only going to be sold on his site, or will bookstores and Amazon be carrying it?
Cheers
Jake

Jake you are right on.

And it's the same in combative arts in general.

I wish I had only understood that 20 years ago.
Some of Scott Sonnon's material really sank that in for me a few years ago.

As long as your grip is secure, you can throw a person using the same basic concept. In the short clip I saw of Tim's new DVD, he explain it well.

But just as Jason stated, I was skeptical about the material for: 1)Wasn't sure they understood no-gi gripping or ties 2) often Judokas think just because they can do the throw with a gi and "without" someone trying to punch or knee them they can do it in a MMA situation.

Believe me, I know the above very well as I've wrestled very good high ranking Judokas in the clinch and thrown them quite easily, yet without the gi they can throw me with ease. The difference is the lack of gripping and handfighting knowledge without the gi.

Now it is a passion or even you can say an obsession of mine to look at different throwing styles and disect the throw into basic common concepts.

The book is good.

One other issue I was concerned with is that we've seen Olympic level Judokas in MMA, mostly Pride, with mixed success. Karo who is only a National level judoka has shown the best transitional success, due to his wrestling ties.
The Sambo guys have faired better for they are more use to the ties needed for MMA, no gi.

Good points bro. I too have become "obsessed" with understanding the underlying principles of the methods we use. Everytime I train with Tim I feel like a child relearning how to walk! But I have been blessed in finding him, and him taking me on a student, in that Tim really understands these concepts and has aided me in breaking down preconcieved notions I once had.
Accurate observation in regards to the Judoka in MMA scene. Need to be well rounded in all aspects of the game, not just the gi. That is why I have started training BJJ, I have no clue what to do with the damn thing on!
Cheers
Jake

The old BJJ lurker at a Judo Comp is a popular myth/game in both worlds.

I think that it's not really true. For those who don't know, the urban legend is that the BJJ guy walks into a judo toureny and cleans house on the little wimps on the ground.

The reason that this is exceptionally difficult to believe is that you first have to get the Judoka in his gi to the ground. The level of skill/tecnicality/ and physical attributes (balance on the feet and grip strength) in GRIP FIGHTING in JUDO is far beyond any other art when it comes to the Gi. If you have not trained Gi girpfighting in a judo school, do not expect to walk up in a Gi to a Judoka and just grab him.

He's going to take the grip that he wants, and he's going to prevent you from gripping him meaningfully. Then he's gonna control you, and eventually throw you.
If you've never done Judo before, a great exercise would be to approach anyone that competes and is above say the blue/brown level, and ask them to spar hard with you. What you will find is that you are never able to initiate an offense, unless that offense is completely free of grips (ie a really long range single or double leg). Only the worst or most isolated Judoka will not know how to sprawl on you. Basically it will be five minutes of pain and wondering why you can't touch the guy or hold him in any way that allows you to push him around, meanwhile all you can do is focus on remaining standing, which hardly ever lasts.

Finally, the BJJ 'guard-pulling' take down; 75% of the time you are gonna fall on your back, hence victory for your opponent in judo. Thankfully in almost all styles of wrestling that I am seeing, this move garners you something between a penalty, loss of points or loss of match.

I am new to it all, and have never been to a Judo tourney, but I went to my first BJJ tourney last month to watch some friends and I was totally shocked at the lack of throwing skills!! I did not see one good throw, sweep, or takedown. It was embarassing.

FWIW
Jake

You are so right about the importance of gi-gripping. It's exactly the same without the gi. Just watch a international caliber greco-roman wrestling match. To the ignorant eye, it may seem boring yet to the educated eye there's a ton of skill. It's all about putting your opponent in the worst position and getting yourself a good attack angle.

The thing I like about chinese wrestling is that they consider both!

Hey Tim,
Would you please list your hierarchy of standing clinch positions? Thanks.

There are two neutral positions (both fighters in the same position):

A high tie up (collar and elbow) with one hand behind the opponent's neck and the other holding at his elbow.

The low tie up (over and under) with one arm under the opponent's armpit and the other over his arm holding at the triceps.

In any other standing clinch or tie up, one fighter will have the advantage.

From the inside position(face to face), the dominate fighter can have inside control (both hands on his opponent's biceps or the front of his shoulders), an inside whizzer position (a deep overhook) usually also with wrist or biceps control on the opponent's far arm, a deep underhook, head control with the opponent in a front or side headlock, a full neck clinch with both hands on the back of the opponent's head pulling his head forward and down, or a front body lock (bearhug).

From the outside position, the dominate fighter can have a two-on-one position (both arms controlling one of the opponent's arms from the outside), an outside overhook (usually with a "seatbelt" or rear waist hold), a rear body lock (bearhug) or a harness position with one arm under the opponent's armpit and the other over his shoulder, the hands locked in front of the opponent's chest.

From the outside position the half nelson and full nelson are also dominate positions. From the front, the quarter nelson and three quarter nelson are dominate positions.