Hello all

I did a couple of years of judo some years ago and quit because of injuries (broke a rib in my last session) and many "close calls" (the risk of serious injury was very high). The reason for this is that I am 5'11" and 145lbs, and therefore (a) MUCH thinner and lighter than all my training partners and (b) very easy to throw with high impact throws (e.g. harai goshi, tai otoshi). I realise I am the wrong build to become a really good grappler. However I am keen to develop some grappling skill, and am thinking about trying again. Can anyone recommend a grappling art with a relatively low injury potential for someone of my build? BJJ seems the safest but not so strong on stand up, which is what I am really looking for. My impression is that freestyle wrestling has fewer high impact throws because there is no gi to facilitate them. Is this correct? Is there anything else I should be considering?

I think the main difference is in the teacher and your partners. Get good ones across the board. Easier said than done I realize!
That being said, it is a combat sport bro. I have never been so banged up since I started training more, and harder. But then again I have never made this much progress either!
Jake

Uh, I think you should re-evaluate the emphasis you put on your "build". I believe Tim is in the 5"10" 140lbs group

"The reason for this is that I am 5'11" and 145lbs, and therefore (a) MUCH thinner and lighter than all my training partners and (b) very easy to throw with high impact throws (e.g. harai goshi, tai otoshi). I realise I am the wrong build to become a really good grappler."

richard look for better teacher and school if you leave close to Tim's School come check as out

Good advice, Jake!



"...I have never been so banged up since I started training more, and harder."

Me too!

But, I've been working on a system that is still "alive" but easier on the body.

What I've come up with is 1)intense handfighting for position 2)intense pummeling for position
3)throwing practice(no resistance) for reps for technical purposes 4)sparring where you partner only resist about 30%

This is a lot easier on the body, yet it works.

jake is right.

a large, well instructed judo school will be just fine.

I used to feel the way you did. then I got better. Now I do less falling and more throwing.

"The reason for this is that I am 5'11" and 145lbs, and therefore (a) MUCH thinner and lighter than all my training partners and (b) very easy to throw with high impact throws (e.g. harai goshi, tai otoshi). I realise I am the wrong build to become a really good grappler."

I would strongly suggest that you take a look at the following google video with Kyuzo Mifune, one of the few 10th degree BB in Judo and a highly skilled individual who is referred to as, "The GOD of Judo"

Look at how hard a time Mifune Senseis students have trying to throw him! The reason? Years of training and the fact that he is of a smaller build! Imagine trying to throw a ping pong ball 100 ft, it simply can't be done due to the lack of weight. Grab a baseball or softball and 100 ft is no problem, unless you throw like a girl. It might be in his book The Canon of Judo, I'm not really sure, but at some point in time
Mifune Sensei expresses gratitude for having been so small and difficult to throw.

If I found the right video, there should be a section where this little kid does some randori with an adult and just cannot be thrown!

Basically, you really don't have any good reason to think so negatively about your chosen martial art and size doesn't matter in the correctly applied grappling arts. Just look at Tim, Marcelo Garcia, Kyuzo Mifune, or Shinya Aoki!

Watch the video here --> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3420182306341125275&q=kyuzo+mifune&ei=Hi MuSKXoF4yErgPyiriqCQ&hl=en

Backarcher,
"But, I've been working on a system that is still "alive" but easier on the body.

What I've come up with is 1)intense handfighting for position 2)intense pummeling for position
3)throwing practice(no resistance) for reps for technical purposes 4)sparring where you partner only resist about 30%

This is a lot easier on the body, yet it works."

I'd like to hear more about this. This seems like a style of training rather than a style by itself. What style is this training being used in? Is this similar to Sonnon's "soft work"?

Not much Sonnon influence.

True. I have no style.

Clinching is the most exhausting and physically punishing aspect of combative training.

Striking, you can sit back catch your breath and size up your attack or wait for your counter.

In BJJ, your body rest either on the mat or on the opponent.

In clinching, there is a constant tension. No true rest period. If you fade for a second, you are down.

This is one of the most undertrained aspects of combative training for a reason.

Yet, I spend most of my time there. It's taken a toll on my body.

I train real pro MMA fighters and real LEOs. So, intensity is required.

I just thought there must be a better training method that gives you the same benefits as true 100% alive clinch sparring.

Just like in BJJ, position is everything in the clinch. So, instead of clinch sparring 100% to a takedown, I used the BJJ concept of "position first". Control the position, control the man, control the fight!

And once you are in position, moving him from that position. That's what sets up throws agaisnt good people.

So, position sparring is done via handfighting/pummeling 100% live, just to a dominate position. Almost like a more combative form of "Push Hands".

The rest is easy. Easy throws for technique with no resistance. Then, live clinching w/throws with a small amount of resistance.

It's about reps, too. If you are always going 100% against someone of your same skill or better, you don't get to practice a lot of completed throws. If you only practice static throws with no resistance, you miss the "timing" factor.

I don't incorporate any throws in my game or practice unless I can do it first with resistance and with someone trying to hit me.

One thing that makes falling easier on you, is simply going with the throw. Coming from an Aikido guy who would have thought....HA

But really, throws tend to be hard on you because of the pressure that builds up in the clinch. If you are fighting the throw for all you're worth, when the throw finally happens there is going to be lots of force in it. That force goes into your body when you hit the floor, or worse yet into your joint if the position is wrong.

It's good for you to face people who want to stop you 100%. Thats whats good about Teenagers and young guys in their 20's who are big and strong. They don't mind giving you their bodies, they are hard to hurt, and heal fast. However that doesn't mean that you have to fight their throws 100%.

Your ego will want to, but that's just bullshit. It's better for your training to find a soft way out of the throw. To not resist the throws directly, but instead find natural ways to go with the throw, and move around it.

If you are throw while doing this, it's not so bad because there is not the same amount of built up tension, making the throw overly powerful. It's also less likely your joints will take the damage if you focus on protecting them(correct movement) instead of endangering them in an attempt to stop the throw.

lots of roll practice

In realistic sparring scenarios, there is no rolling. Breakfalls, yes. But, rolling not realistically. Yet, it's great for learning to keep your chin tucked and great for your back.

i found my highest rate of injury with white belts. barring that; adult beginners. There's a lot of fear, anxiety and ego behind a 40 year old blue belt.

I actually ended up quitting judo due to a severe knee injury. However, I still sometimes do light randori with my nephew at about 30-50% resistance.

This seems to keep the throwing skills in place to some degree anyway, as I can still throw the guys at my bjj school pretty effectively when we go all out.

injuries happen, its part of the experience. there are lots of things you can do to prevent injury in terms of prepping the body for rigorous training.

the stronger your muscles are then the stronger your bones joins ligaments etc. you could be 145 but be ripped and super dense and strong, or you could be 145, fat and scronny.

in the upper levels of martial arts, skill plays a bigger part then height and weight.

one thing you can do is have some sort of stretching regimen to keep the body supple and relaxed to increase range of motion and muscle integrity, which is pretty important i think, when it comes to grappling arts. then you should have some sort of training which emphasizes muscle strength and stamina, because you are more likely to get injured if you are tired and weak.

lots of people get knee injuries in judo because you are do alot of powerlifting,especially in judo, when leverage is applied it makes it easy for a smaller person to lift a larger person onto their back for example, many people who practice judo dont do enough conditioning, but during judo class they are letting people jump onto their back and thats pretty much the only workout they get, which can be pretty stressful to people who arent used to it. knee injuries are usually developed over extended periods of time usually due to poor postural habits during practice, or overloading the joints and not having enough muscle and joint resilience due to lack of conditioning. you can help this by strengthening the muscles around the joint, i.e. doing balanced squats and letting your thighs do the lions share of the work while trying not to tense you knees up too much, and of course there are stances but most of the time those can be more worse then better for your joints and bones if not done right, this will strengthen you all around, giving the joint better support, and also strengthening the joint.

main point being, you should incorporate somewhere into your regimen, strength and flexibility training and work the body evenly.

imo, if you are afraid of getting injured in a controlled environment, then how are you going to react in a real situation? the ground is usually harder outside of the dojo, lol.

i say gung ho, if you're gonna practice martial arts you dont have time to be afraid.

When I first started judo with my boys, the coaches try to foster that gung ho mentality. One of the first throws we learn was seoi nage. We did a drill where we pulled our partners and lifted them onto our backs. One night, I partnered up with a middle aged dude and he kept pulling me in such a way that I kinda was "landing" on his back. Not one of the instructors told us to stop. I never saw my partner again. His son told me he hurt his back that night. I was a bit younger but not so gung ho and so I wasn't hurt.


Later, we were taught the proper mechanics of seoi nage and that made the throw a whole lot easier. I thought to myself that my partner need not have gotten hurt that night. What angered me was the fact that none of our instructors stopped us during the drill and showed us the error of our ways.

One thing I remembered from Tim's vids was that he said that a throw should be as easy as performing them without a partner, or something like that. I wanted to practice judo for a long time. I think that some of the injuries of some friends of mines were more the result of bad habits. From then on, I questioned the methods taught to me and always try to find a way to make it as easy on myself as possible. Maybe I'm a little rebellious that way but it worked for me.

"...I remembered from Tim's vids was that he said that a throw should be as easy as performing them without a partner..."

That's it!

unfortunately that sensation takes a great deal of time to get to?

what do you do in the meantime?

the key to 'effortless throws' is timing and un-balancing. I think that these skills/perceptions only come with many hours on the mat. So you have to get out there and take your lumps whether they be self inflicted or not.

Do I mean to say that there's no way to practice throwing arts or other combative sports without getting hurt? Not exactly. It is inevitable that you will get minor sprains and strains, plenty of bruises and mat burn. But you don't have to blow out your knees, shoulder or back.

Two pieces of advice have already come up; 1. relax, let yourself be thrown. Focus one technical proficiency rather than winning. 2. Be healthy- everything is strong, balanced and free to move. Master the skill of breaking falls. These two should keep you out of the hospital.

Agree with all your points. I just wanted to add that sometimes it would be wise to question the way you do things, and to be in tune with your body. I'm not afraid of pain, but there is a type of pain that your body will send out to you to tell you that what you're doing might be bad for you long-term, and if that's the case you should re-evaluate the way you do things. Pain is subjective so its hard to describe to another person. Being in the health field, I noticed a lot of people are cry babies. Some have a high pain threshold which isn't all good if you ignore what your body is trying to tell you. Let me tell you, the x-rays I've seen on some retired kick boxers or judoka are not pretty. The gung ho mentality is necessary when competing, but I try not to let it impede my awareness of what's going on around me, and inside of me as well.

My concern is the long term effects. I winced at the way one of my boys drop to mat when taking his opponent down. One of the instructors even encouraged it! He does well in class, and though it may work now when he's younger, lighter and doesn't have such a long way to fall to the mat, I don't want it to be a habit.

Hi

Thanks for all the good advice, and the interesting discussion. I do realise grappling is a combat sport and hard falls/bruises are par for the course. What I want to limit are the more serious injuries. Before I had my ribs broken (thrown by harai goshi with the fat guy landing on me) I really knew it was just a matter of time because of the difference in body type. Thanks for the encouragement with mention of the likes of Marcelo Garcia and Shinya Aoki, but these guys are not my build!

Anyway, I'm very keen to get back into it. Can anyone comment on my question about whether freestlye wrestling might be easier on the body? I'm just interested in training, not competing.

Thanks!

While it is true that you don`t have the exact same build as Marcelo or Shinya Aoki, the concept remains the same: there is no such thing as the perfect body-type for grappling. Different heights and weights simply evoke variations on technique and strategy that suit your individual style/body-type...thats all. Also, given your weight/height I'd argue that Shinya Aoki is similar in terms of build as he is on the skinnier side! Having long legs can provide an advantage when it comes to holding someone in your guard and keeping them further away. Also, truly effective MAs offer anyone the ability to overcome anyone else...regardless of their build. Of course, this is a somewhat contrived statement but you get the idea!

Good thread.

One thing that keeps popping out at me from the discussion is that sensitivity, relaxation, use of intent, and yielding are all being mentioned as key factors in doing this type of grappling. These are key elements of the internal style of movement.

It seems to be agreed that when these things aren't present, people get hurt more. Interesting, eh?

Actually I'm 5'11" and 165 lbs.

DVDs take off 20 lbs.

personally from my experience, especially during cooperative drills, you will have your handful of people that will take advantage and try to slam you hard to heal their bruised ego's. give them a little resistance, just dont make it noticable.

there are always dickheads and •••••••• everywhere you go,n and if you're not the type that like to kiss ass and brown nose, chances are you wont get along with them. and you definitely arent going to escape them at your martial arts school.

i remember practicing with one of the lead instructors, and he kept telling me not to give him any resistance, but when it was my turn to throw him, he was resisting his hardest it seemed like (LOL) but i still thrw him like 5 times, and he gets up and tells me that i have to practice with someone else... go figure, dont be surprised when you encounter people like that, just keep on your own path and disregard all the the bullshit thats floating around out there.

haha im rambling.

peace. rob

p.s. gung ho may not be for everyone, but if you have enough confidence in your skill, then i say why not, its better then being scared into a frozen state. Japanese martial arts especially, emphasize this state of mind, in their martial arts. i believe its a chinese version of cowabunga.

Last week I turned 55. Today, just came home from my first BJJ class. No prior grappling experience. I particulary like this group as the students work to help each other improve and each can push as hard or easy as according thier fitness, age, etc. Seems like a good group.

If I act in true American fashion, after 2 weeks, I'll be able to tell B. #2 and Tim that they're doing things wrong and after 4 weeks I'll create my own style and open a school.

Am curious to see how much I develop in the first 6 months.

'B.#2' doesn't Diu-jitsu.

but fill me in when you're 55 & 1/2.

Bob#2

king mint,

freestyle wrestling is a much more explosive game then BJJ.

you can get just as hurt and sometimes the gravity of the injury is worse because "sportsmen" sometimes justify over intensity by arguing they were just trying to score.

e.g.

if a wrestler cranks your knee with an ankle lace its ok because he was just trying to turn you, but if a BJJ guy hurts with a hard leg-lock he's at fault because he supposed to understand its a combat move.

Mark,

Good for you for starting to grapple, it sounds like you have found a good school.

In six months, you'll have a whole different perspective on fighting I believe (unless, of course, a month is all you need to found your new style).