• Archive through May 24, 2008 May 24 - 03:01 pm [20]

"...whole notion that Helio Gracie invented or even modified anything is absurd."

Many old Chinese wrestlers could say the same about Kano's Tachiwaza.

All subjective!

Let's just keep training and keep doing what we love.

We never really see things the way they really are, but from who we are.

Oh, by rides...I mean knee on belly : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5437976587443456460

Or if he is on his stomach, knee on ribs or crab ride his legs, instead of hooks.

I also use Knee on neck and knee on jaw.

Backarcher

Agreed - not sport judo style pins, but there is crossover.

Abdullah

Looking at Helio's basic stuff, I don't think he did make much of a change. But BJJ specifically, and the entire grappling movement as a whole, has gone far beyond what Judo has to offer from a technical perspective on the ground. Its only common sense, BJJ spends 90% of its time groundfighting, and pins don't count as they do in Judo.

Maeda was posthumously promoted to 8th dan. Kinda odd for someone who was "kicked out." Tani was fighting prize fights very publicly for years before Kano graded him in Judo.

Has Yoshida been kicked out?

A competitor may be kicked out, but that doesn't mean it was because he "prize fought."

And Kano ESTABLISHED Judo through challenge matches, didn't he?

The matter is probably not so cut and dried.

I've been out during the holiday weekend. Lots of interesting posts that I essentially agree with.

I'm not aware of any pictures of Helio sitting around w/other martial arts instructor whom he beat and whose imput he asked for later. Nor have I come across anyone saying that Kano put an ad in a paper stating something to the effect of, "If you want your face smashed and arm broken, come to my academy at..."

I've never heard of any of Kano's offspring, or judoka for that matter, throwing water bottles at people over the outcome of a grappling match. But I'm getting off-topic.

I'm rereading a paper that Shinorhara presented during the Teacher's Institue and he states that Maeda was expelled from the Kodokan.

Yoshida has gone the MMA route since he retired from Judo. I don't think he was expelled, he just walked away. He's making more money now doing MMA than he ever would teaching judo at the Kodokan or at his dojo.

It was a nice surprise for me during my first day at the Kodokan, when I step onto the mat and everyone is not only doing newaza, but attacking with every kind of leg lock imaginable. I asked one of the sensei, "Aren't leglocks illegal in Judo?" He replied, "Illegal?!? This is the Kodokan. Why would we care what the IOC thinks about our martial art?"

Funny. If the Kodokan did take an interested in Vale Tudo, they'd all probably just make a new kata based on their research instead of encouraging everyone to spice up their randori a bit with some vale tudo training.

So can Kit or Abdullah help with some info on Fusen differences? Are these a sect of Judo? I am confused about the political BS, and if it really is not important, that is fine. I am just curious.

Also Abdullah can you tell me where you get many of Kano's translated papers? Sounds like some good info in some of them.
Thanks
Jake

Fusen Ryu precedes Judo, as is typically classified as 'traditional japanese jiu jitsu' whatever that connotation might mean to you!

So are Kosen and Fusen the same thing??
Thanks
Jake

No Jake, Kosen and Fusen are not the same thing. A bunch of judoka got together and wanted to do more mat work. This is what is termed, "Kosen judo." There may have been jujutsu lineage holders among the judoka in the kosen tournaments. I can ask Masamura sensei about it the next time I'm at the Kodokan. I just didn't think to ask him what was up with the term "Kosen." I was just glad that he liked having me in his informal class.

Jason answered the Fusen Q.

Some of Kano's papers can be found here:

http://www.judoinfo.com/history.htm

The Library of Congress has some of Kano's speeches on file. You can also buy a copy of "Mind over Muscle." It's a collection of some of Kano's writings.

An interesting note, Daigo Toshiro, one of the current 10th dans in judo, is also a jujutsu lineage holder. He teaches some of the jujutsu resucitation methods during the summer kata course at the Kodokan.

kosen= different set of competition rules, more like a BJJ or sambo tourney.

rules dictate behavior, or vice versa; judoka wanted more ground, so they invented a rule set that de-emphasized the 'ippon' throw, so that these competitions would reflect their values.

Cool thanks guys!
Where do you get Mind over Matter A?
That is great that you have had the chance to train at the Kodokan! How many times you been over? Man, little travelling fool bro!! Lucky bastard!
Jake

Interesting RE: the Shinohara paper, since it directly contradicts what I have been told re: Maeda.

Kosen Judo is derived from Koto Senmom Gakko -
Here's a Judo Forum thread on Kosen Judo that deals with some of the editing issues on Wikipedia link I originally posted:

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=8538


As stated, Kashiwazaki's Osaekomi goes into the development and later withering of the Kosen style due to Kano's not wanting to turn into a "ground only grappling art."


ou guys might find these VERY interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1pZkv1trEI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7tk8cQ1VJ8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_of8P71itic&feature=related