I'm not sure what exactly Helio Gracie modified:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1pZkv1trEI

The mat techniques are the same.

In my opinion, what makes GJJ different is their use of Judo in a "real" fighting scenario. The stand up posture, the kick, the wrestling clinch and the methodical tactic to mount and/or use punches to take the back.

GJJ goal is fighting, rather than pinning or ippon.

If you watch "Judo" Gene Lebell's fight with Milo Savage (a boxer) you see he lacked a good way to enter into the clinch for the takedown and the method to gain position to strike, setting up the submission.

He still won, but he worked too hard.

Very cool old films. Does anyone know what year they were made?

-I'm not sure what exactly Helio Gracie modified:-

Gracies gi's are much prettier, and form fitting.

I believe the film in the first link was made in 1952.

Hal Sharp was in Japan right after WWII. He filmed many of the judo masters at the time. Now, most of that footage is available in DVD format. I like picking Mr. Sharp's brain when I'm in Orange County.

Here's a box set of Sharp's footage:

http://www.risingsunproductions.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1025

And here's some "kosen" judo:

http://www.risingsunproductions.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=475

Another good judo guy to talk to about pre-war judo/ne waza is Kazuo Shinohara. He spends a lot of time at the Sawtelle Dojo in Los Angeles.

I think the focus of judo and gjj have changed. Kano and the Kodokan have a strict policy of not allowing judoka to fight.

I don't know about the wrestling clinch. Mifune was a bad ass wrestler in his day, among other things.

What do you mean a strict policy not to fight? I see fighters from Judo all the time?

What is the diff between Kosen, and regular Judo?

Kosen focuses more on newaza(matwork).

90-95% of what most people see as "sport" BJJ.

The Kodokan has kicked out judoka for participating in MMA.

"Kosen" judo is/was still judo, just done under less rules, a la bjj. The kosen matches died out in the 1960s.

the kodokan what? really? why?

So are there Kosen Judo "dojo's"?
Thanks
Jake

Oy, this again.

Guys, go over to E-Budo and Budoseek and search "Kosen Judo." All your questions will be answered.

The idea that Kodokan kicked out Maeda for prize fighting has long ago been relegated to urban myth.

I was talking with Tim and another seminar attendee about this last weekend.

Bjj comes from Judo. Maeda left Japan BEFORE Kosen Judo started however. But it was right around the time that the newaza interest at the Kodokan was pretty intense due to the recent loss to Tanabe of the Fusen-ryu. BJJ has no verifiable connection to either Kosen Judo proper, or Fusen-ryu, other than directly through standard old Judo.

The argument that "BJJ is just Judo" and nothing was changed is ridiculous.

Ask a Judoka with no BJJ training to show you a spider guard.

BJJ focusses most of its energy on ground fighting techniques. It has much freer rules. It utilizes the keikogi in ways which most judoka would never think of, and its technique is as sophisticated and varied as Judo's standing game is. Judo never developed the ground game to the level BJJ has - the present state of Judo newaza compared to the Kosen Judo videos is ample evidence that Judo has in fact regressed in its ground game, not grown, while BJJ took up where Judo left off. Judo emphasized standing. One look at BJJ's standup and the difference there is obvious as well, once again for common sense reasons.

Tim, I have all four Kosen videos. I think they were filmed in the 60s. Kimura demonstrates some of the techniques, its pretty cool.

One wonders how great Judo newaza would have been had they continued to develop the ground game.

NONE of this is any way is to relate the added technical dimension of BJJ on the ground to a superiority as a fighting art. I believe that Judo is in some ways a superior study, even the pure sport method, as a fighting art and MMA base. Having both only completes the two sides of the same coin.

Archer

Watch Helio vs. Kimura and you see what would have been a slaughter in a street fight.

My suspicion is that GJJ defines a "fight" by the realities of the Vale Tudo ring.

Anyone who makes the statement that "pins don't count in real fights" is dangerously misinformed.

BJJ-ers own experience being G&P'd in MMA is ample evidence of that fact.

Kit,

I'm not taking a side here, being influenced by both equally.

I'm just saying that the goal in Judo is different that the goal created by the Gracies.

I'm not going to use any individual fighters are fights as an example, for that would be like saying just because a 300lb TKD expert beat a 140lb judoka...TKD is the better fighting art. Irrelevant.

"...My suspicion is that GJJ defines a "fight" by the realities of the Vale Tudo ring. "

That would be my suspicion also. One I've never agreed.

Yet, it was an inspiration behind changes in the art.

When I think of original BJJ, I don't think of "spiderguards". I think of the techniques in Rorions first BJJ tapes. Again, most which you'll find in Judo.

When I train Judokas for MMA, the most difficult thing is getting them to learn how to "enter" into the clinch when someone is trying to take your head off, for they never learned that in Judo. You do in the first month of BJJ training.

The second most difficult thing is teaching them handles to do their throws without a gi.

Pinning in "real fights", belongs in the same category as the BJJ definition of a "real fight".

Backarcher

I'm with you on Judo being poorly set up for dealing with strikes and the no-gi game...

....but just as we have to evaluate where BJJs strengths and weaknesses are in light of "real: fighting" same with Judo. Both are much more products of their particular rules' systems than they are of what strategies are better suited for real fights (not ring fights or mat shiai).

I for one find it interesting that the weaknesses in each are filled out by the strengths of the other. I mean when I see the two together are two sides of the same coin.

Kit,

I'm with you!

I'm to the point, because of my LEO training, where I don't care where something comes from, as long as it works. And you have to see those weaknesses to do that.

Like you said, most are a matter of rules and goals.

The major element both bring to the table is "live" athletic training. Training that can give you the elements of "toughness", kinesthetic awareness and decision making under stress that can be used for real situations.

I like just looking at biomechanics.

This is why I refuse to embrace a "style".

'pinning in a real fight' I interpret as a gateway to positional dominance.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=vlxIdhmALqQ&feature=related

In MMA, I believe 100% in pinning/positional dominance! That's my game.

In LEO or "real fighting", I believe in using "rides" instead of pinning.

I can see around me and I have a quick exit.

Hi Backarcher

What do you mean by "rides"?

There are only a few judoka left who could demonstrate a spider guard who have no background in bjj. Kano himself went back and forth on how much ground work should be taught. He made a conscious decision to focus on throws. The Kodokan published some of Kano's papers in English titled "Mind over Muscle" for further reference.

The kosen rules were run out of some of the universities. When judo was made into an Olympic sport, judo went that route and kosen ne waza essentially died in Japan. Those universities still have judo teams, but they're practicing Olympic judo.

Masamura sensei is an 8 dan at the Kodokan and is one of the last people to have competed in kosen tournaments. He was also one of Kimura's top students. He has a wealth of knowledge which he loves to share to anyone that asks.

Like I wrote on another thread, Kano intended judo to be a didactic art. He did not want fighting or money to be involved with judo.

Koji Komuro was kicked out of the Kodokan for wanting to fight. So he took up bjj, fought for a while and then retired. Upon his retirement, the Kodokan asked Komuro to come back as an instructor and teach what he had learned! So I guess things have come full circle now.

Re: Maeda. The library at the Kodokan is a closed stack, and documents from there go missing from time to time. So who knows if he was kicked out...The museum at the Kodokan does have a photo w/Maeda and Kano. It also has a photo of Kano with Sun Zhong Shan (Sun Yat Sen), among other interesting things.

Here's some footage of Komuro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7UcVrW1Vuo

This whole notion that Helio Gracie invented or even modified anything is absurd. Where the Gracies should be given credit is for keeping ne waza alive and strong.