Here I have a clip of Masahiko Kimura the the champion of Judo, destroying Helion Gracie the self-proclaimed founder of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Helio Gracie was hospitalized for multiple fractures. In this bout, Helio was unable to score any counter or reverse.

Clip of fight:
http://webhost.avint.net/munjudo/kimura_gracie1.mpg

Actually Judo is like the bitchslap of bjj. The following is a list of recent judoka who defeated top BJJ men:

(1) Akira Shoji (Black belt in judo but no title in judo) knocked out Wallid Ismael (8 times BJJ champion who has defeated Renzo Gracie, Ralph Gracie, and Royce Gracie) in R2 in Pride 4.

(2) Igor Zinoviev (Black belt but only a local (NY and NJ) title in judo) defeated Mario Sperry (3 times world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). He knocked out Enson Inoue in 44 seconds in 1996 Vale Tudo Japan.

(3) Don Frye (2nd degree black belt in judo) defeated Amaury Bitetti (1995 world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) by TKO in UFC8. Don Frye spent a lot of time practicing judo before the bout with Amaury Bitetti. Frye knew that by practicing authentic judo, he would be completely prepared to take on the BJJ world champion Amaury Bitetti. That is why Frye looked so confident before the match, and he proved himself as we all know. After Don Frye won the Ultimate Ultimate 1996, Jeff Blatnick said to Frye that " Your submission skills have greatly improved." Frye then said, "I spent a lot of time practicing judo." These top BJJ fighters were unable to submit these totally unknown judoka who had no title in judo and lost the bouts in NHB. If BJJ is so much better than judo, then why did these top names in BJJ failed to apply any submission hold on the ground? The fact is that top BJJ fighters were defeated in NHB matches by no name judoka means that it is not very difficult for highly trained judoka to defend themselves against submission holds. Learn true judo, then you will learn to beat BJJ black belts on the ground.

(4) Yasuichi Ono choked out Jorge Gracie (Helio Gracie's older brother) circa 1950. These are four cases in which no name judoka defeated top BJJ fighters.

(5) In 1974, Wilhelm Ruska (1972 Olympics judo gold medalist in over 95kg class and absolute division) destroyed Iwan Gomes (then the no. 1 man in BJJ) by punches on the ground in a vale tudo match. (5) and (6) are records of what happened when top BJJ men fought top judoka. In both of these cases, these BJJ men were brave enough to challenge top judoka. But the bouts ended in executions by judoka

So what?

Orient,
Do you know where BJJ came from?

He's just a kid that doesn't know any better.

Tim do you know where Judo and all Japanese arts came from? That's right it all traces back to the same source: Shaolin. So what's your point?

All Japanese arts came from Shaolin? That's news to me!!! I don't think so kid.

Orient,
If you vanish, would you be 'disoriented'

Actually, there is one documented example of a Chinese martial artist actually teaching in ancient Japan. His name is Gempin (Chen Yuan Bin, he taught wrestling and joint locking skills to several samurai). Gempin moved to Japan in 1638; the Japanese had unarmed combat methods long before his arrival. There is no evidence that Chen Yuan Bin had any training in Shaolin at all. By historical accounts, he was a wrestler. There are records of various unarmed martial arts in Japan (precursors of Ju-jitsu) almost 400 years before Chen's arrival. The roots of Sumo are even older, dating back over 2,000 years.

If my memory serves me right, one of the three samurai that Gempin taught developed what we know today as Kito Ryu. Remember that Kano Studied Kito Ryu. Many of the throws from Judo actually came from the Kito Ryu. Another style that Kano studied was Tenjinshinyo Ryu which had more emphasis in stand up grappling with joint locks and striking. I believe that Tenjinshinyo unarmed methods are directly related to the use of weapons and methods of disarming someone with a weapon. Ground grappling of Judo came from Fusen Ryu.

Of all the sources I read state that Chi'n Na is the founding art of at least Eastern Asia grappling (if not all), and Japanese grappling did evolved form it. Japanese Striking also evolved from Shaolin, in the fact that Japanese learned it from Okinawa and Okinawans from the Chinese.

Uumm...NO! You've got to find better books to read kid!

I think someone should inform the young gentleman about the Chinese love of storytelling.

A friend of mine who is a journalist in Beijing said that a Beijing cab driver told him (with a straight face...as a "true fact" that.....
"all Asian culture and all Asian people came from the Chinese".

So that settles that. Cabbies know what they are talking about.

take care,
Brian

Ah... I stand corrected!

THANK GOD!!!

Chinese martial artists that actual have some critical historical faculties. Well, besides the cab driver....

The idea that Japanese grappling wholesale comes from China is ludicrous. Influenced, yes, but wholesale transmittal, no. I cringe at the stuff that William CC Hu writes along these lines.

I think there is probably some shuaijiao influence on jujutsu, probably through Chen (never knew he was a wrestler, cool!) Thing is, we would have to untangle the whole sumo thing..sumo used to be more like jujutsu and in combative forms contained striking methods. There are a lot of shuai jiao like techniques found in sumo, too, so what indfluenced what? Sumo may have some antecedents on the mainland, or perhaps they just borrowed the word....

Where is the extensive Chinese groundfighting system? I think the Japanese repetoire of chokes, pinning, etc. derived from two factors...battlefield usage when warriors came to grips at close quarters and went down, and had to pin their bad guy get their own weapon and kill him, and the later adaptation of these methods to the law enforcement actions of the enforced peace of the Tokugawa shogunate...along with the famous Japanese rope-tying arts. During late Edo and early Meiji it took off with the rise of individual jujutsu schools and inter-school rivalries leading to competitive grappling.

I think we need more evidence on the Fusen-ryu thing......again there was influence, but a friend in the Fusen-ryu says he has not seen anything that looks like BJJ or Judo newaza in the curriculum.

> along with the famous Japanese rope-tying arts.

What were these called and is it possible to learn them without being a pervert?

Various names: popularly they are called hojo-jutsu but that doesn't seem to be used a lot in individual Japanese arts: they use names like torinawa, hayanawa, bakujo, etc.

You can learn them without being a pervert, but basically they are equally opportunity skills....its in the way that you use it. Meynard studied with Don Angier, who does a lot of rope-tying, and I have heard he has taught seminars to groups that have "aternative" uses for them. Search words like kinbaku on google and you will come up with some interesting stuff. Make sure your kids aren't around if you do....

Right... my main point was more can they be learned from someone who doesn't know them for dual purposes, i.e. - are there people teaching them for strictly martial applications.

I don't find the kinky uses alluring in the least.

Most people are teaching them for martial purposes rather than anything else. I don't think there are very many teachers in US doing so, however. Besides Don Angier, maybe Phil Relnick in Seattle could, as he holds a license in Shindo Muso-ryu.

Not sure how much of it would be practical in the age of handcuffs and flexcuffs....but they do have some very fast "field ties."

A lot of it is very ornate and the color of rope and the style of tie was based on the rank of the suspect.

Yeah I was doing some reading... as was the style of being tied and who did the tying.

I had been under the impression it was some kind of speed-hog-tying martial art, rodeo-style only with humans. I guess though you have to get the suspect into a submission hold first before you do it.

I thought the rope was used as a soft weapon first. Oh well.