Tim,

I've got Renzo and Royler's book. I was quite impressed, after reading the chapter on theory. But, the rest of the book just seems like a collection of techniques.

The positional strategy sounds like BaGua on the ground. Is there a practice method in BJJ that develops the movement skills and basic jing of the art the way Single Palm Change does for BaGua practitioners? Is it the Upa drill?

The book lists the basic postitions in ground grappling, but doesn't really describe how to get into those postitions in the first place. "Position precedes submission." - It seems to me that applying a submission hold shouldn't be that difficult for someone with a basic knowledge of Chin Na. However, getting your opponent into a position where he is vulnerable to a particular submission hold - that's the real trick, huh?

Steven

There are quite a few ground movement exercises practiced in BJJ. They vary depending on the school, but the exercise generally considered to be at the top of the list is the "hip move" (also referred to as "shrimping" or the "snake move" ). The movement involves laying flat on your back then rolling onto your side and jack-knifing your body into a 90 degree angle by pushing your hips backwards. I don't know if you can compare it to the Single Palm Change, but the move is generally recognized as among the most important for fighting off your back. There are alot of other exercises for different positions and techniques.

I agree about the difficulty being in the set-up. (I wrote about the same thing when it comes to standing throws). The entry/set up is most often the most difficult part of the technique. Once a person is effectively immobilized, submissions are relatively easy to finish.

"The emphasis in my training days was on immobilizing an opponent through holding techniques, when this was mastered, choking and armlocks were found easy to apply."

Masahiko Kimura
(the greatest Judo competitor of the modern era).

Tim,

Thanks for the response. Is this "hip move" the same thing as the "elbow escape drill" demonstrated on p. 126-127 of Renzo and Royler's book?

That's it.

Tim,

I found that quote from Kimura in the book on Judo kata by Otaki and Draeger. It's my impression that he was referring specifically to the five "holding" techniques of Katame no Kata.

During the performance of the kata, one partner places himself in a dominant position and then attempts to maintain control while his opponent struggles to escape.

Is this type of training practiced in BJJ?

Steven

In most every class students will 'drill' (as opposed to free sparring) in various positions. X will be in the dominant position and the goal is prevent Y from escaping while looking at the same time for a submission. Y defends the submission and looks to escape.

Tim,

I have a couple of somewhat related questions. As you know, I recently began practicing Judo. The majority of the techniques are taught using the standard method of gripping the opponent's jacket and practice begins from a 'clinch.'

According to Renzo and Royler's book, in practice the positional strategy 'generally means getting into a tight clinch as quickly as possible, thus preventing your opponent from striking you effectively.'

1) Could you give some basic guidelines of an effective 'clinch' position?

Also, Dong Hai Chuan taught experienced fighters how to modify their techniques according to the principles of his art.

2) If an expert in Judo, someone like Masahiko Kimura, came to you to learn how Ba Gua training could make him a more complete fighter, what would you teach him?

Steven

1) There are two basic face to face clinches that are considered more or less neutral. The first is a high tie up (or collar and elbow tie up). For example you and your opponent both hold the back of each other's neck with your right palm and over the top of each others right elbow with your left palm. The second is a low tie up (or over and under position). You and your opponent each have your right arms inserted under each other's left arm hugging around the left ribs and the left arm pinching over the top of each others right arm, palm up holding the opponent's elbow.

Dominate clinch positions include a front waistlock (bear hug from the front), a side clinch (a waistlock from the side with your head behind your opponent's armpit), a rear waistlock (when you are completely behind the opponent), the head and arm position (you have an inside over hook with one arm and the other arm wrapped around the opponent's head in a side headlock position(, an outside over hook with your other arm around the opponent's back (seatbelt position), and a two on one (you hug your opponent's right arm for example from the rear with both arms.

Clinching from a superior position allows you to control the opponent's movement and ability to strike or throw you. The basic strategy is the same. Once you get a superior clinch position, you stay tight to the opponent and use leverage and your weight/momentum to bring him to the ground. In a real fighting situation, you can also strike the opponent from a clinch position while limiting his ability to strike back with force.

2)Ba Gua training is primarily about training the body to move in a specific manner and internalizing the strategy of evasiveness. The art is principle based, and the techniques are expressions of the principles. The solo training is geared towards internalizing body use and the
paired training emphasizes understanding strategy (Kimura? He did just fine with Judo alone!)

Tim,

Thanks for the great response. I am trying to put it all together for the next time I see you. I guess my second question was another way of asking about the limitations of Judo training for 'real' fighting. I am very happy with the way I am learning the basic throwing and holding methods, as well as becoming comfortable with randori practice (working against a resisting opponent standing and on the ground). The time I spent on Tru Balance and circle walking has really been paying off.

But, I do not want my techniques to depend on gripping the opponent's clothing. Also, I am not able to practice blending striking and throwing OR any throws that involve face contact and twisting the neck, etc. I am hoping to supplement my Judo practice with Ba Gua training the way Cheng Ting Hua modified his Shuai Jiao. What do you think?

Steven

My advice is to practice the Judo as it is taught, and once you get a feel for the techniques, to try and integrate it with your other skill sets. Sometimes when we try to compare and combine too early, we miss valuable lessons.

Missouri Man -

If I might comment. First, welcome to Judo! Second, I am an LEO that studies judo and submission grappling and also put some time in with CMA (Taiji and Xing Yi/Yi Quan) and classical jujutsu.

Many Judo techniques can be performed without the gi grips. You will see more and more of them as you continue to train. Most of the major throws are easily done without gripping the gi, or with a slight modification if the gi cannot be gripped. For example, I have a shoulder problem that prevents me from doing a lot of the tsuri movements on uke's gi when I throw with tai otoshi, or uchi mata or harai goshi. Wrap the head or neck with the tsuri arm instead and you will get a great throw, it actually looks more like shuai jiao. I also do seoi otoshi and tai otoshi with one arm holds (gi or no gi) that work well. Experiment.

While you may not want your art to depend on gripping clothing (wise idea) it also makes a lot of sense to understand grips and what those handles can do for you, as well as what it is like to fight someone gripping you. Unless you regularly get in fights on the beach, people wear clothing. Even t-shirts can be used for chokes and twisted around make good binding with which to use against an adversary in the street. If you live somewhere where jackets are ever worn, most judo methods work straight on those jackets. Just like doing BJJ with and without gi, its good to know how to use judo with and without grips.

hey hissho...why are you working undercover?

Not undercover - this is my main screen name, actually.... how ya been, Meynard?

BTW, love Tim and Ed's book!

You used to post as yourself. I got to play with Ken Good this weekend. He showed us some systema and talked with Tim about IMA. We had a great time. Wish you were there.

Tim,

Thanks for the advice. So far, that's exactly what I have been doing. I have a lot of respect for the practical teaching methods of Judo - referred to as 'The Genius of Kano' in Renzo and Royler's book. I am hoping to 'compare and combine' with your help, on my next visit. I am still planning to make the trip in January. But, I sure think about it a lot. It's difficult to discuss with people at the Judo club, because most of them emphasize sport competition and training within the rules. I train for self-cultivation and self-defense. Also, nobody I've talked to has even heard of Ba Gua. Anyway, I guess that's why I still need to travel 1800 miles to see you.

Hissho,

Thanks for the suggestions. I have been training with a couple of former wrestlers. If we can ever get together outside of class, I'm sure their experience with no gi training will help a lot. I am particularly interested in the holding techniques (osae-komi waza). A couple of things really bother me:

1) holding the opponent's belt
2) when controlling the opponent's arm, reaching around and grabbing my own lapel

Both are included in the basic Tate-shiho-gatame, which seems to be a type of 'mount' position. Any comments?

Steven

Steven,
You can use virtually all of the same Judo pins without a gi by modifying the grips. In holds that involve wrapping an arm and holding your lapel, try holding under the opponent's triceps (overhook position) or pressing your palm flat against your chest as high up the chest as possible.

Tim,

The Blue Belt Chapter in Renzo and Royler's book lists about 20 different self-defense techniques, including escapes from various grabs (wrist, lapel, throat, etc.) and dominant clinch positions (headlocks, bear hugs). The 'Minimum Technical Requirements' for blue belt suggest learning at least five. Which ones are the most important to learn first? Also, do you teach about the same things in your Shen Wu classes? Thanks.

Steven

I would say the most important standing holds you need to know how to escape/counter are:

Lapel Grab and Punch
Front Headlock/Guillotine
Side Headlock
Rear Headlock/naked choke
Front Bearhug
Rear bearhug

I teach counters to all the common standing and ground holds from the beginning of training, as they are most likely to occur in real fights.

does anyone know where i can get the book "my judo" by masahiko kimura?

Like Tim advise, learn Judo first as it's taught.

I teach what some prefer as "gi-less" Judo or clinch fighting.

It's a combo of Judo/Sambo/Greco Muay thai and freestyle wrestling. I'm trying to incorporate other clinching concepts from everything from Sumo, Chinese/Mongolian wrestling, Dumog and Koren traditional wrestling, Ssireum.

My primary target group is LEO.

The actual throwing concept is all the same, but gripping and entrance vary.

Once you learn the throwing concept, no matter where it's from, then learn your "gi-less" gripping or ties.

Tim stated all the general positions, more specifically:

Over and under
inside 2 on 1
outside 2 on 1
whizzer/overhook
underhook
seatbelt
over the back lat grip
double necktie
single necktie or collar and elbow
inside double bicep
outside elbow control
double front wrist grab
single double bicep grip(dumog)
underhook
fronthead lock
front bodylock
rear and sidec bodylock
double overhook
double underhook

You see the possibilities are endless.

Problem is that most Judokas are unaware of all the gripping possibilities due to the fact that they compete with the gi, so it would only make sense to train with the gi.

When I first started judo, I'd ask instructors about variations for my MMA fighting. They had little. They only thought they knew in theory, but they had actually little experience in gripping.

Now, I've found a good Judo instructor who isn't familiar with the grips but knows his judo. I'm teaching him the grips and he is polishing my throws from the grip. I'm taking private lessons with him. It's been a great experience for me and enlghtening for him for many of the things "he thought would work" in actually live sparring do not.

Because he is so skilled at Judo with the gi, I can show him a grip and he just thinks for a minute and away we go!

I suggest contine learning "real Judo", that means understanding "why" the throw works not just the static "technique". Understanding the "whys" will free you of static technique that you can only do one way.

I suggest you looking for wrestlers who know ties, getteing Martell's Greco-Roman Wrestling book, Dennis Hall's Over and Under and Russian 2 on 1 videos, Randy Couture's "Fight to Win" DVD series and Chertow's Underhook video.

Richard Salamone's "Wresting for J-Jitsu".

Scott Sonnon's "Leg Fencing" is another excellent resource.

After you get a decent base in Judo, add one gi-less grip and see what throws from Judo are proficient from there.

Freestyle wrestling has just about every throw in judo, if you look beyond the techique and at the principle.

Good Luck!