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I don't really have a comment on ground fighting (other then it's great) I would just like to know when chris seaby sleeps, he posted at 1:35 am, then again at 4:14 am, did you just sit and stew chris? yep thats it.

The 'girl' of my dreams is giving me nightmares.

I'll bet "she" is.

Hey Samba,

From your post it is clear you have never met Tim. So, with your permission, here are a few facts about Tim that you may use to inform your future post. I know that you are seeking the truth, I hope these little tid-bits help in that quest...

First, Tim trains 6 plus hours a day. Conditioning, technique work, sparring etc. The old (and modern) masters would be proud.

Second, Tim puts his stuff to work against highly skilled, non - cooperative opponents. Who else do you know who has done bagua throws and techniques against high level Bjj guys in tournaments and wins consistently.

Three. And this is really important. In over a year I have never, NEVER, heard Tim suggest taking a fight to the ground against multiple or single opponents. If you want to learn sport grappling, he'll teach it, but he is very clear that you DO NOT want to volunteer to go to the ground on the street. He would advocate putting your opponent on the ground with as nasty a fall as possible, one where he can't break-fall or roll. But if all you can do is knock him out, crush his ribs or elbow him in the throat - that's okay too.

Yea, if it goes to the ground because you slipped or you're actually fighting an opponent that knows how to juke you and throw you, Tim shows you how to get back up. He also knows how to fight on the ground. You'll have to forgive him for that.

good answer, wise words.

well said robert

It may be well said but I contend that it pretty much supports the position I made in my original post at the start of this thread.

So why was everyone arguing against me?

I will concede that "all that necessary" is less to the point than "overrated" or "overemphasized" though.

Truth comes from argument between friends, Mr. Prawn. I mean, how else are we going to find out that Tim dosnt wear any panties during his six hour workouts?

And hey, like, check this out:

"I was in a fight about a year ago. I got the takedown, worked to full mount. Now as I achieved the mount I started punching down but, when the person I was fighting realized he was gonna get rocked he bagan to bite. First the bite on the right thigh. Okay I fish hooked him, then got my thumb bit. He then decided to clinch his hands behind my head, pulling my face down so he could take a chunk out of my face leaving me with a huge scar on the side of my cheek. While still trying to puch down and keep the mount he dicided he wants to show me the root (aka yank my dick off). Which led me to taking alot more punishement then I should have, because of not taking side mount instead of the full mount."

Jeff,
I have been studying Renzo and Royler's BJJ book and the new Army manual (almost the same thing, huh?) However, my only acutal experience with ground-fighting comes from Judo practice, which is sport competition oriented. My personal interest in martial arts is geared toward self-defense. So, I am always trying to consider things from that perspective. That's why I enjoyed reading your post. I have a couple of questions:

Where does that story come from? Are you suggesting that side control is better for self-defense situations?

MFM,

Thats a post from the underground forum on the mma.tv board. The guy that wrote it seems to be saying that side control would have had some advantages as far as controlling for the bite. Me, I dont know anything. Paul Vunak has like a whole biting 'system', he could probably chew a hole in you from side control too. Self defense situations just fundamentally suck, so I simply make sure that at all times I am never closer than twelve feet away from any other human being.

Thank god for the internet.

Thanks Jeff. That's funny stuff, '...never closer than twelve feet away from any other human being.' That would sure make things a lot easier, in terms of self-defense. You've taken Tim's concept of Safe Distance to the extreme!

MFM,

Here are a few things from a long discussion of "Submission Biting" I found saved on my computer from a couple years ago. I cant remember where I got it from, I am pretty sure it was the Undergound Forum or else Stickgrapplers awesome archives. Anyway, once its on the internet its public domain, so I guess it is OK to repost it without knowing the name of the author (sorry, author). The only information I could find about him was that he said he learned this stuff from his Greek uncle who was into old-style Pankration.

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Submission Biting by itself is nothing spectacular nor a very effective means to kick ass or defend yourself, but when incorporated into Pankration or other fighting systems, it can be very useful and effective. You dramatically alter the strategy of an opponent when he knows you're trying to take a chunk of flesh out of him every time he's attempting to submit you. And if an opponent is much more superior to you in skill, you can take away a lot of his arsenal with biting and bring him down more to your level and give you more chance of surviving the encounter. Which is why your guard is the last place you want your opponent to be in a real fight as you would be open to bites to the testicles, inner thigh, abdomen nipples, and open skin surfaces.

Submission Biting was really used as a means of escape from submission holds more than as a means to submit. Besides biting to the jugular and biting the testicles, everything else was pretty much for escaping. The only time that the jugular bite was used was if you knew you couldn't go for a prolonged period of time with your opponent because he was too strong or too skilled and you needed to stop him mortally. Other than that, it wasn't used because there were more effective and less energy expending ways to submit.


Escape from rear naked choke.

An example of how you can use biting to escape from submissions. Let's say your opponent has your back, he's trying to slip in the rear naked choke. You are fighting and struggling against it. But finally he is about to slip in the choke, as he is you must turn your head to the side to face the elbow of the arm that is applying the choke (it is very important that as you are turning your head, you open your mouth and have your teeth opened) when your head is turned facing his elbow, than turn it back to its' original position (your upper jaw will be scraping his upper forearm as you come back as will your lower jaw do the same to the bottom of his forearm). Once back in the original position, you will sink your upper teeth into the top of wrist bone closest to you (the wrist is made up of two large bones) and sink your lower teeth into the bottom of the wrist bone. Once you have your teeth sunk in, let the adrenaline take over and don't let go for nothing, remember, this guy was trying to kill you.


The mount and its weak points against bites.

If your opponent has mounted you, immediately attempt to bridge him off. As he bases to keep from flying off while still keeping the mount, quickly hug him and don't let go. Than you can go for a bite to his chest or nipple, or to his shoulder. While you are biting, you can bring one of your arms up behind him and grab his ear, you can attempt to rip it off or to run your thumb up the side of his face (while holding his ear with the rest of your fingers and using it as a base) and fish hook your thumb into his eye, preferably between the outside of the eye ball and the eye socket. He will be in a state of defense and urgency as you are biting and eye gouging him. You have altered his game plan and sense of security in his system and have greatly increased your chances of escape or victory.

I mentioned ear ripping. The human ear is not connected by bone. It is connected by cartilage and can be ripped off with enough pounds of pressure. An effective technique is gripping your four fingers in back of the ear with your thumb pressing in the front of the ear at the top where the ear connects to the skull. The grip should be firm and secure. The tear should be forceful and sudden. The motion should be tearing the ear downwards and not outwards. It doesn't always work on a first shot, but someone who is expert at it can do it with one motion.


Escape from Triangle Using Biting and Testicle Squeezing.

Let's sat your opponent is about to slip in the triangle choke on you by holding your right arm. He has his one leg on the side of your right arm, as he brings his other leg around to trap you in the triangle, you turn your head toward that leg and sink your teeth into his inner thigh. From there, you lean your right side a little and you can quickly take your free left arm and grab his balls. You will use your index finger and thumb to secure one side and the rest of your fingers to secure the other side so that his balls don't slide up his skin and near the pelvis to safety. Than you can either squeeze them or what is even better is to squeeze them and while squeezing them you push them in towards your opponent. This will want to make him back away, he will more than likely let go of the triangle and the guard completely and than you can attack with whatever your Martial art is.

One addition to this is that if you become real good or have super quick reactions, you can go straight for a testicle bite when he is trying to get his leg around you to complete the triangle choke. But it would have to be a super quick reaction before he gets your face pressed against your arm that he is holding (in this case we had said your right arm to use as an example).


Opponent passes your guard and attempts side mount

Let's say your opponent is passing your guard (let's say he's passing from your right side for example). He puts his right arm between your legs with his palm facing the ground and his left arm under your head (as if he's holding your head). When his right arm goes between your legs and as soon as his right palm plants unto the ground, you will trap his right palm by pressing it with your left hamstring crossing your right leg over your leg (also crossing your feet). And than applying pressure downward with your right leg, while your left hamstring is pressing down and inwards towards his wrist thus keeping his palm planted toward the floor and applying uncomfortable pressure against his wrist. Take your left hand and (you will make a V-shape with your left hand, 4 fingers pointing one way, thumb pointing the other way) between the area of your left hand between the thumb and four fingers(the middle of the V-shape) you will place against the bottom of his nose and push upwards, your 4 fingers will wrap around his cheek bone for base, and your thumb will press directly into the middle of his left eye ball to make him go back. Your right arm will be wrapped around his back and you will than bite into his upper biceps or front shoulder muscle, whichever one is closer and more convenient.


Side Control.

Let's say you tried to trap your opponent¡¦s right hand between your legs but he was too quick and pulled it out and has based it to the floor over your left side. You will immediately hug him (your right arm around his back and your left arm between his right arm that is based and his head, with your upper shoulder under his jaw so he can't bite you) and either bite into his upper shoulder muscle or neck, whatever is closer. If in a panic, he tries to knee you in the ribs, quickly turn your body, while still hugging and biting him, towards his kicking side and try to bring your knee up to block it, but this is very difficult depending on your flexibility and size of your opponent, if you were very flexible, you could fully extend your leg while he is bringing his knee back to kick you and knock him off balance thus further enabling you to sink your teeth into his neck or shoulder and tightening your hug, but realistically, this kind of flexibility is difficult and that move is very difficult, it is more realistic to just bring the knee up for the block. But whatever you do, DO NOT let go of your hug and slide your arm that's closest to his kneeing leg down to block his knee because he can then trap your arm.


Knee on Stomach.

Your opponent is in the side control (we had said from your right side to use as an example). You still have him hugged (it is important to not let go of your hold and submission bite if you have it sinked in). If he tries to put his knee on your stomach or already has put his knee on your stomach, immediately cross your leg (the same way a man crosses his legs) so that the leg that is crossed over has its' foot facing him. This ensures two things: (1) to protect your balls, and (2) you will need it very soon to push him off before he mounts you, I will get to that part. First he may attempt to uppercut punch you with his right arm between where your arms are holding him. What you will do is keep your hug as tight as possible to make as little space as possible and take your left arm (while still hugging him) and position it as if you were elbowing someone, in other words elbow facing in the direction of his uppercut fist. Your four fingers will be wrapped around his neck with your thumb digging between his jugular and Adam¡¦s apple pushing in and diagonal upward. (Have a bite to his left upper shoulder or biceps sunk in if possible) The thumb will cause uncomfortable pressure as will the bite, when you feel he won't punch anymore and will probably try to grab your thumb to pull it out his neck, than slide your thumb into his right eyeball with the other four fingers sliding to the back of his skull, and push his eyeball from the bottom of the eye, upward and in while kicking him off with the foot that was crossed and facing him. He will just want to get out of this situation of getting bit and eye gouged so the kick will come at a good time. While you kick him off you simultaneously roll out into a standing position or whatever it is your MA has you do.


Eye Gouging Techniques.

Thumb: Using back of skull or neck as base. The pushing motion will come from tilting the wrist and keeping the thumb firm.

Pressing your thumb directly INTO the middle of your opponents' eyeball is intended to make him go backwards (to retreat backwards or push him back)

Pushing your thumb from the bottom of his eyeball and pushing up and diagonally inward is intended to make him get off you and retreat upwards or backwards (if he's mounted for example), or to stop his forward progress and stick his head upward (if he is shooting in for a takedown for example).

Pushing your thumb from the top of his eyeball and pushing downward diagonally inward is intended to stop his forward progress and stick his head downward.

Pushing thumb from the left side of his eyeball and diagonally inward will make him more or less turn to his right side and vice versa (push from right will make him turn left).

Fish hooking the thumb between his outer eye ball and eye socket is intended to make him go backwards, or to stop his attempts to strike you and focus more on his own face, or to want to make him close the distance on you.

Fish hooking the thumb between his inner eye and eye socket also has the same effect but also momentarily prevents him from seeing as his pupils are being forced in different directions.

Fish hooking them between the bottom of the eye ball and eye socket has the same effect of making him retreat and focus on his face but also makes him to want to turn his head downward to relieve pressure.

Fish hooking them between the top of the eye ball and the eye socket has the same effect as above except it makes him want to turn his head upwards.

Submission Biting,

Very interesting stuff! I appreciate you typing all of that. It's a lot to think about. I'll have to work through it with my training partner.

At the time when Zheng Chenggong occupied Taiwan there was an extraordinary monk in Guangdong who took up his robe and bowl and crossed the sea to visit him. He claimed to be familiar with the arts of disappearing into the earth and predicting the future by observing the wind, which gave him the key to the martial arts, and he said Zheng should test him and see. Zheng did as he suggested, and in discussing strategy with him found he went with certainty to the crux of each question, and that he was able to draw together the general outline of the situation in accord with the ways of antiquity. Zheng marveled at him, honored him as a national teacher, and accorded him special treatment, which the monk accepted with equanimity.

This monk was by nature proud and haughty, even with his fellow monks. At first his peers treated him with deference because of the esteem in which Zheng held him, but over a long period of time his presumptuousness even began to bother Zheng, who came to suspect him of being a Qing court spy. The disgruntled monks, seeing their opening, fanned up Zhengs animosity until he came to regard this monk as no more than a bandit. His heart became burdened with how to get rid of him, but he also was afraid of the monks prowess in Qigong, and feared that if his plans went awry he might bring disaster upon himself.

Now, there was a man named Liu Guoxuan, a hoodlum who used to hang around on the coast. Once he had gotten drunk and killed someone, and he had joined Zhengs forces for fear of getting caught and punished. Zheng admired his courage, and had given him a high post. Upon hearing Zhengs complaint, he arched his back and vowed to stake his own life against that of this troublesome monk to repay Zheng for his patronage. Zheng was afraid that the venture would fail, but while he hesitated, Liu read his thoughts, went down on his knees before him and declared "The success of failure of the matter is your servants responsibility. Let your majesty not give it another thought."

So Liu proceeded to strike up a friendly relationship with the monk. A little over a month later, Liu called the monk over to bathe with him in a pond fed by hot springs, and engaged the monk in friendly banter, saying "The National Teacher has matched the Buddhas own original nature. You have a clear mind that seeks the way, and your prowess in gongfu is perfect. Suppose you encountered Mantanga herself, could you retain your composure?" The monk smiled and said "The Venerable Canliao used to say that the plaster and wadding of Chan practice do not drive away the spring breezes, but this old monk has engaged in long and thorough application, and the vow I took to remain aloof from the female form is yet enough to obstruct the tempter." Liu feigned admiration at this, and the two arranged to meet another day.

Soon afterwards, Liu gave a feast for the monk in an official reception hall for those who had offered significant public service. It was a real red lantern and green wine affair with fine dancing and excellent singing, and all the guests got dead drunk. Liu began to speak of his past and present erotic adventures, and pressed the monk to drink some more. The monk remained cheerful and composed, and kept his attention fixed on Liu. At last the wine gave out, and Liu said "The night is old and the evening quiet, and it is hard to find amusement. But in a back room here, there is some secret sport that is very lively. Would you care to come and have a look?" The monk thought "This is an even more interesting bit of business. What would it hurt to play along?"

So, casting aside discretion, the monk followed Liu to the secret room. Once there, he looked about a few times, and saw pallets with their red woolen blankets covered with brocaded cushions and embroidered pillows. On top of these he saw rows of handsome young boys and fine women, most of them without a stitch of clothing on, each one of them in turn displaying their sensuality. The brightly flickering lamplight made their lustiness appear more vividly, and their flowery faces and jadelike skin became all the more sexually beguiling.

Now there was one particularly enchanting young girl who crouched down by his side and signaled him with her finger. Would not her tender feeling and lithe bearing be enough to send the mind of the beholder into disorder? The monk at first appeared to ignore her, and then to regard her only lightly. But in an instant he felt his vitality give out, and he called for a servant to arrange a seat, as if he had no more strength to stand. Then Liu, as soon as he saw that this monk was unable to maintain his composure, came up from behind, took up his sword, and swung it. Little flowers of blood spattered the ground, and the monks head fell with a cracking sound.

My favorite part is where they chop off his head.

I was looking for a sword to do my own head in.

I touch my Privates