In other threads I have seen the seeds of a debate over this issue. If you guys have covered this ad nauseum in the past, let me know. Anyway, it's something I've been grappling (get it?) with lately. So I'll start off with some queries:

1) Since the relatively recent popularity of ground fighting seems to be linked to UFC popularity, is learning how to compete in this manner necessarily the best way to train for "real situations"?

2) What about when attacked by a group? To my knowledge this would be the usual senario for most. Or is it?

3) Chinese systems don't have a great deal of ground techniques. Even in the wrestling, just one guy is sent to the ground & the other doesn't follow. Is this accurate? If so, why?

4) Ground training results in more injuries. Or does it? If so, do the costs outweigh the benefits?

5) Most, if not all of my TCC & chin na training builds up my balance. Shouldn't I both wish to avoid, & be fairly able to avoid the ground, rendering this type of drill almost unnecessary.

6) Do people tend to overrate ground work because you can end a drill with a choke & seemingly show how effective the style is by doing so?

As for the last question, it particularly concerns me. As a student of TCC I have certain ways of issuing some power to my opponent, but let's face it, if & when I become proficient at a move like Wind Whistles Through Ears (which can be applied as a knee to the groin followed by a two fisted temple punch) I can't test it.

I know this sounds like another claim like "I could fight, but I'm just too powerful or too Taoist", but I still think I make a valid point. Moves like this & other "higher level" long form moves are pretty obviously not good for contests. But when you can pull them off reliably (and not forgetting to yield first) you should be able to avoid going to the ground.

It's just that in form I will train many moves I probably won't ever apply in my fighting class. Because one (I assume) can almost completely apply their chokes during ground fighting training & contests does that somehow give them a more "realistic" appeal? If so, are people then overemphasizing this range of fighting?

Sorry this is lengthy, but you guys need to post more to this site anyway. I want to hear it from the ground fighters. Insert smiling face here.

Prawn,
I'll offer my limited understanding-

1- UFC spurred groundfighting popularity by virture of the fact that UFC is a more 'real' form of fighting that events the average public sees. Before UFC nearly all tournaments were heavily ruled to eliminate striking and kicking (wrestling) or to eliminate lengthy groundfight (boxing) or contestents landed one or two hits and were seperated for points (Karate). Seeing what happens when two guys start hitting and kicking each other let people realize "oh, THAT'S why groundfighting happens." Then, seeing a thin BJJ fighter win against many larger, harder hitting and kicking opponents sinched it.
Yes, learning to groundfight will come in handy in case you are unable to crumble a determined attacker with a punch or kick.

2- attacked by a group: groundfighting may leave you exposed to attack from others (most people get in to scuffles over parking spaces or with a jerk at a bar... multiple attackers aren't as common ask you make them seem).

3- yes, it's accurate. For two reasons, one,
it is easy to end up in jail for a long time for unlawfull fights in China. Two, there was an understanding of respect between men in China and, prior to the recent popularity of thug mentality, in the U.S.) a fight was over when someone wound up on the ground. Getting up for more after being put on the ground is is sign of strength... Kicking or hitting someone when they were down was considered a weak, pu$$y thing to do.

4- I don't know how anyone could say whether
groundfighting or nongroundfighting causes more injury. In any 'sport' anyone can end his own fight at anytime... injuries usually occur when that gets neglected (but if you think groundfighting causes more injuries... wouldn't it be valuable to "cause more injury" to your opponent? )

5- Unless you're a Weeble, someone can take you to the ground. You might be able to pop'em a few times before they do but, someone can. Hell, I'd like to try just because you said that.

6- It's not as easy to choke someone who knows how to avoid a choke (ie, groundfighting) as you might think. But, once a choke is on, it is one hell of a good way to end something you want to end.

Great observation!!!!!!!! Great post, Shane.

Most fights don't go to the ground, but many do.

Yet, almost all fights go to a clinch.

I train combatives every week with a group of police officers. We study tapes of real fights on the streets, with LEO officers and from prisons.

What we learned is almost all fights go to either the clinch or ground.

The average fight last from 9-12 seconds, before it's broken up or someone gets knocked out.

Fancy disarms don't work with weapons. It's best to clear the weapon, trap it and use forward pressure and do whatever you do!

Larry Hartsell(JKD) once said he watched one round of a boxing match and counted 17 clinches. it's natural, you get hit...you clinch...no matter your training.

It was funny watching one of the first UFCs, when two traditional artist fought one another. There was no mystism, stylist strikes or flowing techniques. They clinched and grappled!(It was ugly...they had no idea what to do).

The easiest way to prevent takedowns is to train how to do takedowns and have someone who knows what they are doing try to take you down in a "live" situation.

Also with groundfighting ability, you have more confidence as a stand up fighter. You can focus without fear of going to the ground.

When I train police officers in groundfighting, I focus on escapes, reversals and getting back to their feet.

When teach women in my Rape prevention class, I train them to gouge, bite, claw, get space(shrimping), kick and get back to their feet.

Oh, as far as techniques in traditional forms to defend against a grappler...useless, unless you do it for real.

Why?

Timing is everything!

Thanks guys. I can see some of your points, but I'm not so convinced of some others. But I don't have time go point by counterpoint right now , but let me just say this: I get the feeling that MAs in general do not really think enough about what might actually occur in the street.

Shane - Take my TCC experience for example. I was taught & believe that as an intermediate practitioner you may be able to defend yourself, but you are most likely going to have to hurt the other guy. As an advanced practitioner you can win without doing harm to the other guy.

Now, after a moderate amount of training I don't know whether or not I would have to necessarily hurt someone in a given situation in order to stand a chance of winning. I do know that I am thoroughly unconcerned about parking space battles and bar fights. These are not what I'd consider "real" situations. They are avoidable & could only lead to complications.

I stand by multiple attackers as being of primary concern. However, part of me thinks that there just aren't as many "real" situations (even here in the Big Bad Apple) as we might think.

We all theoretically use our minds, we avoid problems, we yield, we are principled. There are police to assist us. Most of us are probably not going to need these skills. We probably train much more out of dedication to our arts than from any perceived threats out there. A "real" situation will be a rarity.

Backarcher - On the other hand if you are in Law Enforcement like me, you have a different set of issues than others do. I'll need to get with you on some of your points soon. But now I must sign off. Let's hear from others as well.

Hey Dragonprawn,
You're in law-enforcement? And you're convinced that you can avoid bar fights? Do you just not answer calls? Or do you just hold-off outside 'til the fighting's over? Do you just assist in picking up the broken pieces?
A bar fight isn't a "real" situation? But facing multiple attackers is of primary concern? What kind of bar fights are they having back east these days (only two at a time go at it)? Are you some kind of an explorer scout wannabe police officer?
There are police to assist us? Really? Legally, (US Supreme Court rulings have consistently stated that) no law-enforcement officer or agency is liably responsible for the protection of any individual -- even if the protection of that individual has been assigned them. There are plenty of dead people who were in the protective care of law-enforcement officers when they were murdered (didn't I once post here about a relevent murder that happened in Henderson, Nevada about ten years ago?).
And what about when the thugs & murderers are law-enforcement officers? Woman gets pulled over by an officer in California; she gets raped & murdered. Man gets put in a jail cell (not prison) in Oregon, & he's later found dead from many stab wounds from a hunting knife (wonder were that was during the strip-search...uh, it wasn't anywhere then...it was brought in later by the POLICE). And the list goes on...
And from your first posting concerning avaoiding going to the ground (as law-enforcement): haven't you so much as even heard what guys on PCP do to law-enforcement types. I know of one PCP-crazed "suspect" that took five officers to bring down (that's right, down to the GROUND) -- and three or four of them were medically retired as a result of this unarmed confrontation. Law-enforcement sometimes doesn't have the luxury of not getting involved (that's why it's called "duty". And do you think for one second that those officers fighting the PCP suspect kept their balance? Do you think your balance is so great that you can never lose it (if so, then you're wrong)?
I was raised up in a law-enforcement family & I worked with law-enforcement agencies while I was in the military. So, how are you IN law-enforcement? Pray tell.
Please keep these postings REAL & not just "real." Thank you.

Mike - Do not be so arrogant & ignorant. I work for the Department of Corrections. I am not a cop. I go to bars known for their beer, not their brawls!

Now, what I've seen in my facility is that two combatants rarely go to the ground. They like to stand there & duke it out until me & my fellow officers break it up.

But more on my observations regarding the difference between fights on the inside & fights on the outside later. I have work to do.

What we can learn from law enforcement about 'real' fights is an interesting topic. I'd hate to see this one go to the flame room.

DragonPrawn,

Where do you train? If you are within an hour of me I'll make the following proposition:

Spar with me for 2 minutes and I'll give you $100 cash if I am unable to take you to the ground within 2 minutes. (you're not obligated to pay me a cent either way).

You can pull off any technique you have in your asenal (even the "Wind Whistles Through Ears"if you are able.

I would make the same offer for 1 minute but that
'Wind Whistles' thing might slow me down for a second or two.

I'm not in Law enforcement. I just train with cops and one guy is even an orderly in a mental hospital.

It's been great training for me and most enlightening.

For instance, we often try to find ways to go from a submission on the ground to an arresting position.

We also try to keep in mind what they can and can't do to the criminals.

Multiple attackers....No solutions(on the ground or standing), except movement, aggressiveness, awareness and flanking. It's pure luck!

We do a lot of scenario training.

We keep in mind where the weapon of the officer is in relationship to the criminal when in the clinch or on the ground.

We grapple on the ground...with a knife!

We start most of out scenarios from about arms length with no posture, as if we were having a discussion and suddenly the guy attacks(armed or unarmed). Then, we go "live"!

Sometimes, we allow fingerlocks(three fingers only...with control)

We also simulate gouges and bites.

We found that "dirty grappling"(biting, fish hooking, gouging and pinching) is only good for creating space or an opening when on the bottom(Then, you still have to have some ground skills to fully escape). For whoever is on top STILL calls the shots. He had do the same thing to you, but he has better positioning.

There is so much more, but I have to go to my Judo class!

later!

Robert

that's $50 a minute... assuming your assumptions are correct.

Shane - Even before your proposition I was thinking about this. I was going to concede that you (or any trained ground fighter) could most likely take me down. After that you would win the match. But that is my point. You, or someone like you is not going to attack me.

I don't believe that it is the aggressor's best interest on the street to wrestle around on the ground. Don't the "bad guys" want to get away as quickly as possible? Am I missing something here?

And as for the TCC tools at my disposal, they are varied (though admittedly of varying quality) & extremely adaptable. If I train them all the time why wouldn't I wish to use them? I don't think most UFC type guys have gone against what I'm talking about.

Backarcher - Working in an institution trains you in many ways. There was a another thread on the board about fear reponses. Working in these places for many years you can get some of that under contol - invaluable!

Unfortunately we don't train enough where I work, which is part of why I do my TCC training.

I'm glad, however, that this thread is getting responses. Remember, I never said I thought ground techniques were without their usefulness. I just wonder if they have been overemphasized lately.

Shane,
do you happen to live in Sacramento and are a commerical real estate broker? The reason I ask is that I knew a wrestler named Shane back in Sac and I was wondering if (in the its a small world department) it was you. You might not remember me but we used to drink with a mutual friend named Raymond.

take care,
Brian

Dragonprawn,
The good news is with a competent teacher and some hard work, you can learn to successfully defend yourself on the ground against most people you are likely to encounter (you are right, you are not likely to encounter a trained and proficient groundfighter) in a relatively short period of time (a few months perhaps). With this amount of training, you may not be able to compete and win submissions grappling tournaments, but you will be able to handle (or at least escape from) attackers that would have pummeled you before you learned the basics of groundfighting. A little realistic training on the ground will go a long way towards preparing you for the possibilty the fight might go to the ground, and will not take too much time away from your stand up training.

Tim - Thanks. What you say makes sense. For now though I'll stick to my TCC & my fantasy about it being a complete system.

By the way, how long would I have to train in ground fighting if I just wanted to win that Benjamin off Shane? I need the dough!

Dragonprawn,

Take the bet! Meet Shane outside and when the "bell rings" run like hell (definitely a "technique" in MY "arsenal" ) until you can get on the other side of a car or something. Id say your odds are better than 50% of being on your feet two minutes later. What do you have to lose?

Of course, if you do "win" you ought to let Shane pay off the bet by giving you $100 worth of grappling lessons, that would probably be more valuable than money to someone in your line of work. Actually, on that topic, I would be really interested to hear you talk about the difference between fights on the inside and the outside like you mentioned earlier (maybe in another thread unless it relates to grappling).

>I don't believe that it is the aggressor's best
>interest on the street to wrestle around on the
>ground. Don't the "bad guys" want to get away as
>quickly as possible? Am I missing something
>here?

Your opponent can go on the ground as result of YOUR actions (for example, a throw). From my personal experience it's quite common that he pulls you with him. In fair number of cases he succeeds and you end up on the ground (usually in more advantageous postion then him ).

Thanks Dragonpawn,
It wasn't arrogance (believe me of not). I had no problem with your posting(s) 'til I read that you were in law-enforcement. Until that point your posting seemed to be typical of someone who didn't know much (didn't have much life experience in this area that is). But once I read that sentence concerning your occupation I thought "Police/Deputy/Federal Agent? No way!" So I figured maybe you might be an explorer scout or something other than the above. Using 20/20 hindsight I could have been more friendly & merely asked the question "What area of law-enforcement are you in?" Your answer, "Dept. of Corrections" could help explain the rest of your posting(s).
Instead, I wrote as if you were either a cop playing dumb (for whatever reason) or a total fraud. In the future I will try to remember to write friendly, short questions at first when I have my doubts. I just learned (from you, indirectly) that the approach I took is much less efficient than a simple question or two. And the only thing I was ignorant of in that posting was your occupation.
Now that that has been straightened out, I have an answer for your #3 question (original posting); question concerning why in Chinese martial arts (in general) doesn't one follow his opponent to the ground (if & when his opponent is knocked or thrown down). Many of these martial arts had root beginnings in China when soldiers of the day may have had to knock or throw someone down as part of waging a pitched battle. Soldiers in such battles often wore armor & may have been saddled with a variety of military gear (plus battleFIELDS of the day probably got very bloodied & muddied; a.k.a.: slippery) -- making it difficult for a soldier to regain his footing & in the meanwhile making him an easy target for the spear, axe, & sword-wielding enemy around him. Under such circumstances, following someone to the ground was a BAD IDEA.
Today, going to the ground can be either a good or a bad idea. One needs thoughtful strategies for various conditions/circumstances. As examples: (1) in a bar-room brawl, one may want to seek an exit first & foremost (if not obliged to join in), or a corner, wall, or buddy at your back if you're going to stick around -- here you DON'T want to go down, but if you do drop, then you want to be able to handle an opponent who may be down there with you, so you can get back up if appropriate; (2) in a pitched battle during a bayonet charge (last used not long ago by the Brits in their Falkland Islands campain) -- you DON'T want to be on the ground if in a position of inferior mobility; yet (3), with the speed, range, & accuracy of today's firearms you DO want to keep yourself from STANDING out as a target at times, like say, in sentry removal you may want to take the sentry to the ground so you'll both be hidden behind tall grass, heavy brush, large rocks, or whatnot -- so another doesn't see you & start shooting (the Malaysians were expert at doing this to the Brits -- they used groundwork with specialized weapons: cool stuff -- if you're not on the receiving end).
In my experience, most "fights" are short -- sometimes hit & run, sometimes just one, two, or several blows (& often blows with fight-ending objects at hand); but I've seen fights that last longer (& these usually end up with two on the ground). And you're right, many fights are broken up by those around the combatants (sometimes it's a permanent break up & some times its just a temporary one -- fight rekindles). But can you expect that all the fights you break up or are otherwise involved in in the future will not ever involve you going to the ground? Of course not; so I recommend (and so does Tim, and just about every other sane poster here) that you cross-train (& plan to include some groundwork -- so you'll at least have a base strategy & perhaps a plan B & C strategy should you end up on the ground). As the ol' song goes "We're all just making the best of a bad situation, a bad situation can't you see?..."

Dragonprawn,
If you agree to split the money with me, I can show you some "secret" techniques that will have Shane begging for mercy in seconds. Running isn't an option, the boy can leap like a gazelle.

Gazelles are terribly fierce when they want to be!

Brian,
I'm not the Shane you mentioned.