Tim,
I just got a copy of the Chin-na Practical applications book you translated back in 1993. How do BJJ and Chin-na compare/contrast, intersect/overlap?
If you have already addressed this, please just point me to the right archive.
Walter

Walter,

I'm certain that Tim can answer your question(s) in depth; but in the meantime (while awaiting this reply), I'll point out some things (from my very limited knowledge-base on these matters):

Pp 1-2: Passive Chin-Na, or escapes/counters is a good place for beginners to start. The boxer, Jack Dempsey taught offense before defense for good reason; but offensive boxing basics are often more quickly learned by an individual than
offensive judo/ju-jitsu basics -- and defensive boxing covering up, bobbing & weaving, etc. usually comes fairly quickly if not naturally during sparring practice (provided the instructor takes it a bit slow & easy on the novice); also, boxing can be improved or at least maintained somewhat with solo practice. Grappling arts on the other hand are usually practiced as 2-man drills or as catch-as-catch-can, and a novice will usually find himself thrown, tied up like a hurting pretzel, &/or choked -- usually in short order; so having defenses against such come in handy (and such defenses usually don't just come to a novice's mind naturally -- even though they are usually very simple & quite effective).

Pg 5: "...to study Chin-Na [(or BJJ)] in the most expedient manner, one must...study...underlying principles." I've heard Tim say this (& he's posted this info) many times.

Pp 10-11: Study the body's upper range of motion as pictured; Chin-Na & BJJ take an opponent's limb to the end of its range & then torque away (and the more you fight it, the sooner & more you'll be ripped apart by it); take Elbow Joint Inward Contraction -- I believe this is the concept behind what's called an "American" (pin or point opponent's hand to ground -- to the side of his head, his arm well bent -- & leverage his elbow skyward); Upper Arm Extension (good for when you're above your opponent & he's face down on the ground). Also, compare these pages with pages 37-48.

Pg 12: Outward & Inward Rotations of the Leg (when standing, good for controlling opponent's leg at its base); Inward Contraction of Leg (when standing, it's the classical foot-sweep); Extension of the Upper Leg & Outward Expansion of the Leg (movements used in off-balancing & throwing your opponent when standing).

Well, that's a start (about as far as I can take you at this point without a closer look at the book & much more exposure to BJJ). Technique-wise, the trick is to find out how to take the stand-up Chin-Na demonstrated in the book & apply it while on the ground (since BJJ's specialty is ground application of these leveraging principles). One can spend much time re-inventing the wheel so-to-speak, or one can learn more quickly by simply asking a BJJ practitioner (who you trust) for the specifics.

Mike,
Thanks for the comments, great post. I'll look at the pages you cited. Also, the bit about BJJ's strength being the ability to apply the leverage techniques on the ground. All familiar stuff, but nicely packaged.
Walter

Gee...I thought it was obvious.

Walter,
The principles of all joint locking techniques are basically the same, so I think the practice of any leverage based technique reinforces skill with all others.

That being said, I believe students still need to practice and spar in all positions to be able to apply techniques under pressure. In addition, the application of joint locks to the point of submission (rather than takedown) is usually much easier when you control an opponent on the ground, as opposed to standing up.

Tim,
Thank you.

Since you guys in shenwu spar with boxing gloves, how do you apply chin na in sparring envoierment?

Dork,

Others can answer your question in detail; in the meantime I would have you consider the answer to the following question:

Do all Chin-Na (joint-manipulation) applications require the use of one's hands?

I thought shenwu used those open-finger thinly padded gloves like in UFC?

We do all sorts of sparring depending on what folks want to work on.

No gloves- lightly slapping and kicking each other- no real harm or danger but a very obvious way to see 'oh crap- I leave myself wide open when I ...' or 'ah- if I enter this way, I can pull of this throw'. You get a good feel for what'll work for (and against) you in an intense but less than hostile situation. If you're able to wrap your opponents hands down and touch him on the head with your palm repeatidly you'll be able to do the same putting some power behind it.

Open-finger gloves- a little more sold contact with more grabs and such. Usually sparing partners will stipulate something friendly like- no closed fist strikes to the head.
Some go all out.

Boxing gloves- if two folks want to work on 'striking' and body covering simultaineously.

If the sparrers want to, they'll pop on headgear, mouth peices and cups and go full contact.

Some of us (them) go full-contact with no protective gear.

It all depends on what you're in the mood to work on.

As for Chin Na- it happens, but folks generally go easy on each other knowing that in noncooperative situations things can get tweaked badly, fast.

No gloves full contact? Why not throw in the chin na and go all the way, LOL. But ya, a multi-faceted approach to cover various bases, sounds sensible. Tell me, do you also do one-legged squats, then run around hugging a heavy bag? Talk about hard-core, I'll never mouth off to a shenwu guy again!

well... heck no. Personally, I've never done a one-legged squat nor run around hugging a heavy bag.

I ordered Matt Furey's "Combat Conditioning" recently. I'm not a grappler (yet), but it has some neato stuff in it. I'm looking forward to Tim's power-training book (I just hope running around with the heavy bag isn't necessary).

Than why are there no videos of you guys doing that on cirtual accademy.

*virtual accademy*

I think you can train certain situations with the light gloves, like fighting in a clinch and agreeing to light contact. BUT I only do this with guys I trust completly. MMA sparring is better trained for in segments rather than putting on little goves and fight shorts and trying to beat one another down. I had a guy who was getting ready for a fight who wanted to spar using the light gloves, he wanted the full "feel" of pressure standing (was a good grappler and beginning striker), I tapped him right on the point of the chin and down he went, ne NEVER would have been stunned like that with a 16 ounce glove and I felt bad for shaking him up like that, So I wont ever fully spar with them again.

"no videos of you guys doing that on the virtual academy" "that" what?

sparring without gloves hard contact, or with mma gloves hard contact, and using internal prinicples under pressure as you describe vital to your training.

I don't feel like putting it up there.