Mike - Of all those who have responded to my original post, you have made the most convincing (and might I add thorough) arguements for the necessity of groung-fight training. After all it's bound to happen sooner than later that I'll be raped by a policeman if I don't. Now are you certain that I won't need it when that infantry battalion charges me with bayonets at the ready?!

Just to be on the safe side I will sign up for those lessons as soon as I win that $100 off Shane.

Shane - In my TCC training I have learned how to repulse monkeys, return tigers to mountains, & part wild horse's mane's. Now with Tim's help I'm going to learn how to effectively deal with leaping gazelle's too! Get your checkbook ready.

Tim - I'll even give you two-thirds. But do you know where I can get heavily discounted grappling lessons?

Jeff - It may be an interesting thread. For now I'll just say that most facilities nationwide have become kinder & gentler places during the past decade due to incidents, lawsuits, etc.

We can't just do as we please in terms of the use of force during situations. To me this makes my TCC training even more valuable. Often someone watching will not even know what I did. Nor will the client. And I can minimize my use of force.

There are different issues we could discuss. For example, getting attacked where I work is different from my having to break up a fight. If you want to know more maybe we should start a new thread.

Anvar - Point well taken.

Bob #2 - Where have you been?

collecting coffee grounds for future groundfighting.

I just wish someone would explain whether the grounds are supposed to be wet or dry.

Dragonpawn,
I was responding to your (original) question about PEOPLE needing ground-training, not about just YOU needing ground-training; my point was that many PEOPLE in DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE could be better off with some ground-fighting skills should they end up in a bad situation, than if they had no such skills in such a situation. I recommended that you get some in your line of work (& by implication the examples about a PCP-crazed suspect & about bar fights was meant to help you to realize that I might be right; also by implication from the bayonet & rape examples, I suggested that military personnel & women might want to consider such training too -- but you know this; your just being a wisenheimer). But I've changed my mind: YOU don't need to cross-train in ground-fighting, for you're the very first law-enforcement-type who can just hold 'em all back with your rapier wit.
Be advised that should I respond to any more of your questions, or should I make any comment about something that you post, from this point on such response will only be for the benefit of other readers who actually might want answers to the querries you made & might find some of my other examples useful ones.

Dragonprawn,

I started a new thread under the Concepts section, called Fights on the Inside vs Fights on the Outside. Looking forward to reading more of what you have to say.

Tim,

Could you describe what basic practices a person should emphasize who is only interested in being able to defend themselves on the ground and escape. Thanks.

Steven

First, how to properly defend against an attacker when you are down and he is still standing.

How to get up properly when the opponent is still standing.

How to escape from disadvantageous positions (when you are caught in top mount, side control, a head and arm or the opponent is on your back).

How to defend against being struck if the opponent is in your guard and you cannot make space to kick or sweep.

Finally, how to defend against strikes and basic submissions from the bottom.

Dragonprawn,

You said:

"if & when I become proficient at a move like Wind Whistles Through Ears (which can be applied as a knee to the groin followed by a two fisted temple punch) I can't test it."

My question: If you can’t test it, how will you know whether (or when) you've become proficient?

Similarly, you said:

"when you can pull. . .off [higher level moves] reliably [albeit moves that cannot be tested] you should be able to avoid going to the ground."

Since you concede that there is no way to test the efficacy of such higher level moves or, therefore, your ability to effectively apply them, how can you ever KNOW that you can pull them off, much less pull them off reliably?

You can’t! To this end, I refer you to what is, in my view, a very informative article:

http://realfighting.com/0702/danaherframe.html

We fight the way we train. Never having attempted to apply Wind Whistles through Ears on a resisting opponent determined to attack you in a training situation, I submit to you that it would be quite surprising if you could ever apply it (much less apply it “reliably”) in the chaotic milieu of a real fight! Is that what you’re hanging your hat on to avoid going to the ground? Or are you relying on your “TCC & chin na training [to] build up [your] balance”?

One of the beauties of BJJ is that you can roll (spar) at full power (if you so desire) with a fully resisting opponent who is trying to obtain and maintain position and submit you while you're trying to do the same thing to him. Consequently, you have immediate feedback with respect to what works (as well as what doesn't work). You KNOW whether you are proficient at applying a technique, escaping from a bad position or, to get back to one of your original points, avoiding a takedown.

Dragonprawn, without any groundfighting training, the last place that you’d like to find yourself in an altercation is on the ground. Even in the early stages of controlled BJJ training, finding yourself under a well-trained opponent who knows how to apply his weight properly (putting aside issues of submission) is a frightening sensation. Try, simply, breathing under such circumstances. Issuing chi is out of the question!

Have a nice day.

Mr. Meanie - I will try not to be too mean in my response. TCC is obviously a well establish & respected MA. If you develop a high skill level in it you can handle yourself VERY WELL.

That said, TCC is extemely difficult to learn & good teachers are few & far between. I happen to have received excellent instruction in what I consider high quality TCC. And I train hard.

You are sort of taking what I said the wrong way. Sure there are moves we can't test, but there are many we can & do. We become proficient at push hands, to learn to stick and yield. We use heavy bags & chest protectors to develop & test power. We practice Da Lu for elbows, shoulders, breaks, locks, etc.

I do not actually have to break my drill partners elbow to figure I could do it for real if the opportunity arises. Just like you don't with your BJJ. You don't choke the guy to death either. There is always a limit to how far you can go in training. Let's not kid ourselves.

The point I made that you are challenging is that your style of MA has more appeal to some because you can see & understand much of what is going on & it looks very effective. With TCC, the application is often not fully grasped by the observer nor the opponent, although the results are usually QUITE CLEAR. This is in theory, in practice, & in personal experience.

Anyway, if your intent is to convince me your stle is superior, don't bother. I'm sticking with mine. It has helped me a great deal in many ways over the years & I'm still making progress.

Plus, I watched some grappling on television this weekend on cable (held at a Native American casino) & I don't want my face that close to some guy's sweaty crotch while he attempts to crush my skull like a grapefruit between his thighs. Nor can I picture myself on the sending or receiving end of that particular technique in a "real situation". They held that position a LONG time. I'll take High Pat on Horse & Piercing Palm any day!

Dragonprawn,

My intent is NOT to convince you of the superiority of my style over your style. Far from it.

I cross train in BJJ and TCC.

Accordingly, I’m well aware of the benefits, both martial and emotional, that the internal arts can confer, particularly when instruction and training are high caliber and TCC is supplemented with chi gung/meditation.

What I hoped to point out to you is that if you’re only training stand-up, there is a significant gap in your knowledge base. Attempting to correct that gap in the heat of a real situation – when, for whatever reason, you find yourself on the ground – is a potentially costly way to learn.

As a number of people posting to this board - Mr. Cartmell included - pointed out, learning the basics of good ground defense may take a matter of several months. Better to spend that time now and not need it than to rely on da lu, push hands or Wind Whistles through Ears to avoid a takedown. And, if you don’t want to, you won’t have to bury your face “in some guy’s sweaty crotch.” ;- )

If you don’t want to learn the triangle choke (which was not particularly well-applied in the match that you watched – I watched it , too - and which you mistook for an attempt to “crush the guy’s skull like a grapefruit”), then skip that technique and spend your time learning how to stop someone who’s mounted you from raining strikes down on your face and head. Perhaps one day, you might find that useful.

I train da lu, too. Tell me, honestly, when you train da lu at your dojo, does your training partner attempt to strike you in any fashion that even remotely resembles a full force, full speed attack? I ask this only because, when we train da lu, we don’t. Does your training partner combine his (relatively slow) straight right “attack” with other techniques so that you don’t know whether he’s about to throw an easily da-lued straight right or hit you with another weapon (for example, a left, a low kick or a strike from an elbow, shoulder, etc.). If not, do you really have a basis for being as confident as you seem to be that da lu will be the answer to all situations that may present themselves? In my experience, da lu, which is focused on the typical lead right sucker punch, will not help you avoid going to the ground. And isn’t that what your post was about?

Another question. Do you train your push hands on all manner of terrain or on the relatively level floor of the dojo? Is that floor ever wet and slippery like, say, the floor in a bar gets from spilled beer? I’m sure you understand my point.

Any of us that have trained seriously and over long periods of time in a traditional MA like TCC have a huge investment in what we’ve done. We’ve realized many benefits, no doubt about that. This often makes it particularly difficult to acknowledge gaps in the system we’re learning. I guess what I’m saying is that you should try not to let that investment of time and effort get in the way of preparing yourself, especially in your line of work, for this sort of contingency (going to the ground).

A good sprawl, in my opinion, will do more for you that all of da lu, push hands and Wind Whistles through Ears combined when it comes to avoiding going to the ground under a determined opponent.

My 2 cents.

For those of you who haven't read it, I'd recommend reading the article on realistic training by John Danaher (see the link posted by Mr. Meanie above).

I think it is useful to look at the information from a 'method' based point of view (ie, the necessity of realistic sparring) as opposed to a 'style x is superior to style y' point of view).

What's a sprawl?

A sprawl is a defensive maneuver used to stop an opponent from taking you down off a shot (when someone attacks your legs with his arms, most often with a single or double leg tackle).

As the opponent lowers his level and shoots in to grab your legs, you throw your feet back and press your hips into the opponent's shoulder or head, arching your back and forcing the opponent's head and upper body down toward the mat beneath your hips. It is probably the most basic defensive skill taught in most styles of wrestling.

Tim,

Recently I read an interview with Alex Mordine on RealFighting.com (http://www.realfighting.com/0702/mordineframe.html) and one of the points he made is the following:

"The best way to approach martial arts is to start on the ground first, then learn the stand-up part of martial arts. Like I mentioned earlier, learn to crawl first, and then learn to walk, and eventually learn to run."

It's not the first time I encounter such an opinion, and I wonder what would be your thoughts on the subject?

The opposite point of view (which I share) had been expressed by Jigoro Kano in "Kadokan Judo":

" The emphasis is first on throwing techniques.
[...] It's better to concentrate properly on one than treat inadaquately with two. If groundwork is undertaken first, later chances to learn nage-waza [throwing techiniques -A.] may be few or non-existent. Especially if practice time is limited, concentration should be on learning throws."

I'm going to throw some additional questions out there for anyone who wants to give an opinion:

1) We are all getting older. My birthday is tomorrow in fact. For how long can one realistically hope to apply effective ground techniques? The guys I see grappling look young.

2) I read in the introduction to a Bagua book the other day that although Bagua does not have groundfighting per se, since it is a MA based on principles & not on techniques (though it has techniques), there is no reason you couldn't ground fight using this system. Your thoughts? Could the same be said of TCC?

3) It is possible to knock somebody out with one punch. This is true even with gloves on occasionally. It is also an ideal of TCC, especially for those that emphasize striking. So, without the gloves (as in a "real situation" should it not be even easier to knock someone out?

4) Along the same lines, if an opponent can "rain punches down on me" while I'm on the ground without the match even being stopped, these must have relatively little power, no? Isn't that because it is all arm strength & uses none of the TCC power advantages (whole body, heel power, rooting, etc.)?

5) Do you believe that some MAs are "higher level" or more sophisticated than others (all things such as amount of training being equal)? Not necessarily better for what a given individual is trying to accomplish, just higher level in general?

Anvar,
I think that it is important to divide the training time between stand up fighting and groundfighting in the early stages of training, covering the basics of both. With a coherent system, there is no reason to completely focus on any one range of fighting to the exclusion of the others. After students are proficient with basic stand up and ground fighting techniques, I'd spend proportionately more time on stand up fighting skills (if your concern is more self defense rather than sport), but it is still important to keep up grappling skills.

By teaching all ranges concurrently, I've found that students become more confident quicker (there is less fear of the unknown) and stand up/ ground training reinforce each other.

Dragonprawn,

1) If you look carefully at ANY combat art/sport (the ones which actually involve some form of non-cooperative, contact fighting) you will find that most of the participants are young. As to how long one can realistically hope to apply groundfighting techniques? It will depend on the person, but Helio Gracie is still grappling (and defeating skilled grapplers a third his age) every day, at 90 years of age. Gene Le Bell is almost 70, he'll spar with anyone, he always wins (and we're talking about fighting, not pushing hands). If you go to Judo tournaments, you'll see a great number of middle aged and older fighters. How many competitive boxers do you see past 40?

2) Understanding a principle and knowing how to fight are not the same. The greatest Ba Gua or Tai Ji master alive will fare no better on the ground than a complete beginner if they haven't actually practiced groundfighting. If understanding a principle translated into actual ability, why practice at all? Can you read a book on Tai Ji Quan and, with an understanding of the principles yet without a minutes worth of practice be able to apply Tai Ji Quan in a fight? Why reinvent groundfighting based on Internal MA principles when there are already complete systems already available, based on the same principles?

3)It would always be easier to knock someone out than to grapple with them. The reality is, one punch knockouts rarely occur. If you want to focus your training on one punch knockouts, you'd be much better off practiceing Western boxing or Xing Yi Quan than Tai Ji Quan, which is primarily a stand up grappling art.

4)Being mounted and having an opponent "rain punches down" is just about the worst thing that can happen to you in a fight. The top mount is THE dominant position in a fight. Fights are often ended from the mount position, more than any other position. In MMA competition the only reason the guy on the bottom isn't always finished, is because he knows how to groundfight and is able to defend himself on the bottom. The top mount allows you to strike down with the full weight of your upper body, the power of your arms and shoulders all with gravity on your side. The man on the bottom cannot strike upward with any appreciable force, and cannot reach the face or head of the top man. If you have never been grounded and pounded, you could ask someone to mount you and puch your face and head (be sure they are wearing gloves!). Your question about the blows having "relatively little power" will be answered.

4) Yes.

Tim,

Thanks.

Gracias Tim - However I must beg to differ when you say that TCC is mostly a stand up grappling art.

Recently there have been a couple of good articles pointing out the similarities between TCC & western boxing. I need to get those references & post them.

Also, my teacher emphasizes palm, fist, & kicks. When we do grab it's mostly very brief and sometimes with just thumb & pinky. The grab takes place during the counter attack strike or kick. Grabbing for too long would compromise us in these situations.

It's just a different emphasis I suppose. Our TCC is very much like boxing. However, we don't bob up & down. We keep an even height, moving from the dan tien. We step (root) then strike, shoulders down of course. We have a couple of different types of footwork(t-stepping, "fencing" style, circle stepping.

All in all it works very effectively for us.

pretty sad actually, what happened to poor tim? started off ok, xingyi in taiwan......then went the brazillian route, nice panties those guys wear in the ring though. sad, sad sad....

Yeah... now not only can he kick, punch, throw, and joint lock...he could also crush you on the ground. It's a terrible thing when somebody's martial arts skill gets so well rounded it makes them untouchable to 99.999 percent of the so called martial artist out there.

I suppose the samba king perfers the leather pants and cod peices worn by the UFC guys.

Friggin' Chi-Huggers and Dontien swirllers really suck.