Tim,

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but I was wondering if you could point out any noticeable differences between throwing/stand up grappling in the Chinese internal martial arts and Judo? I guess to be more specific, do you find significant differences in the body methods/power generation? Entering strategy? Off balancing an opponent vs breaking their posture? Or any other differences you can think of?

I'm not trying to start a style vs style debate, or say something is more superior or offend anyone... I'm genuinely interested in the differences... Like when some Judo people hop onto the balls of their feet entering into a shoulder throw, and how that maybe different from someone in Baguazhang who steps into a throw.

I know that a throw is a throw, and regardless of style, it's either efficient or not as efficient, but I would be interested in what you could say about any notable differences.

Thanks,
Craig

In shaui jaio it seems the throws are a bit muscled. I guess randori can't really be "soft". It just seems like the bigger guys do better in my class. We are taught to be on our heels and rotate on our heels to generate power for certain throws. This goes against standing on the kd1 point(middle of foot) that internal arts advocate. This took me a while to get used to but when I turn on my heels I now find that my hip rotations are tighter and more connected to my base.

Thanks for your insight, Classico.

No problem. I know of two judo people and they both told me similar things. They said thy Judo guys mainly like to do one throw and don't try others. I can't remember the Japanese name.

Whom are you learning Shuai under Classico? Turning on the heels is a recipe for a blown out knee brother!
JAB

That's what I was thinking, Jake.

No names, fellas cause I don't want any drama from anyone. I'll say this though. He is respected and you know who he is, Jake. How's that for a mystery? Who he is doesn't matter. What he teaches is more important. I used to think that you would hurt your knees rotating on your heels as well but it hasn't happened to me or my classmates. Perhaps this is one of those martial arts urban legends.

There are some movemements in IMA where the practitioner spins on the heel (the spin in Sun Style Bagua's Double-Palm change for instance).

I reckon it all depends on one's alignment in relation to the opponent and what one is doing at the time of the heel spin.

Shane

Shane
Indeed, but you are loading weight and throwing them.

Classico
What drama?? I have no time for little girly games. You don't even use your real name here so... whatever.
Your attitude towards it reminds me of a 20 year old we have in BJJ with fucked up shoulders, elbow etc. I asked why he did not tap when it got tourqued out.... cuz' it did not hurt! I asked if it hurts now? "Like hell!"

Just because it has not happened does not mean it won't. Mechanically throwing from the heals is not proper, but to each their own. Not my knees!
JAB

This has been rehashed a billion times. The fact you youse your name doesn't make you special. I don't believe proletariat should use their real names unless they are special or distinct from the group. Just because your mom purchased a star in outer space and named it, "Jake Boroughs' doesn't mean you have reason to pound on your chest.

When I said I didn't want drama I didn't mean from you. I meant I didn't want people being like, "gee, I can't believe so and so teacher taught Classico that. I thought he was good. ". Blah blah.

The fact still stands that I was taught to turn on my heels when turning from a bow and arrow to a dragon stance. I "might" get hurt doesn't translate into I did get hurt and that no one should ever turn on their heels.

WOW! Sorry, cannot help with your inferiority complex bro!
Good luck with your training homie!

Classico,

As you said, in general, throws are throws.

Differences in set ups, entries and off-balancing/breaking the posture will create the need for variations in body method and use of force. For the most part, these differences will be determined by the costume worn and the rules of the match.

Since grips determine the types of entries and throws possible, the uniform will have a huge impact on the finishing techniques. Even an ostensibly minor difference like long sleeves on a Judogi vs. short sleeves on the Shuai Jiao jacket will make for a substantial difference in grips and subsequently entries into throws that are fundamentally the same at execution.

Rulesets also have a defining influence on grips, entries and throws. Where you can grip, allowed throws, the use of strikes to set up takedowns, whether ground fighting is allowed etc. will determine the types of techniques used.

Different arts with similar costumes and rulesets will tend to favor the same types of body methods, grips, entries and finishing techniques. I think it's perhaps counterproductive to compare and contrast "styles" as opposed to "purpose" as defined by the above parameters.

Tim

It must suck to be know so much.

Nice post.

keepin' it real.

B2

Thanks for your response, Tim.

Tim,

I never thought about just how much the uniform plays in dictating throwing applications and entries, but it completely makes sense.

Thanks,
Craig

I Been Training with Tim since 2005 and still

Tim Always Surprise me with his knowledge

Awesome!

My mistake, I meant to address the post to Craig.

Craig,

Chinese people use Chi when they throw. Japanese people use Ki.

That's the main difference. All the other stuff is nonsense.

Well thanks for clearing that up, Robert.

Since I'm half Scottish, I suppose I'm screwed.

Who needs chi if you can use sheaf toss as a Scot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-4Erbpz4r4