I wanted to start a conversation on the single and double leg takedown (or variations thereof) found in Shuai Chiao & Judo & Sumo / Ssireum etc. My experience is limited, but I have seen few of them in competition nor in training. I was wondering how prevalent this technique was back in the day, and how the setup has evolved, as touching the ground with a knee or any other body part (in SC competition at least) would knock one out of competition, so modern methods of shooting in would not be strategically wise.

I welcome comments from other stylists as well, I just have not seen many single/doubles in other styles outside of Shuai Chiao in the Chinese Martial pantheon. And I am totally ignorant about Judo.

Thanks
Jake

The high inside single(head on the inside)is usually one of the first takedowns I teach in my clinching system. I teach it to MMA/BJJ and law enforcement officers. I never teach touching a knee. I teach it from a underhook, 2 on 1, and from an over and under.Getting the leg isn't that difficult, but finishing is where people have problems, for they are not "reading their opponent's intentions". Once you grab the high single, your opponent will usually do one of 3 things or give you one of 3 energies 1)try to move away 2) try to move into you 3)whizzer, pull you up and sprawl his leg back. The answer to those energies are all different, but many only have the same response for all of those different energies.
The answer is to utilize your opponent's energy and take him where he wants to go. 1) If you grab his leg and he turns to try to move away, then you switch to a lateral double and take him that way(see GSP)2)if he drives into you, "run the pipe"(drive his leg between yours as you pivot back). 3)if he whizzers and sprawls his leg back, and pulls you up...you go with his energy and transition to a bodylock.

The double I teach for MMA/LEO/BJJ and Judo when it was legal is a "old man double" or high double or "blast double": Mike Krause, the best youth wrestling coach in the US, does a good job explaining it here: http://www.flowrestling.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234202-technique-tuesday/ 257343-krause-blast-double-to-shoulder-turn
*In my experience, coaching athletes to keep their heads up is the most difficult part.
*Next, coaching athletes to penetrate through their opponents not to your opponent is often a difficult concept.
*I always use a "crash pad" when coaching this one.
This is a great tactic to use after a snap down or feint.
Here's Denis Kang and Josh Koscheck with their versions on the MMA double leg tackle. Denis works off of his opponent's strikes and Koscheck sets his up with his own strikes. I prefer Josh's finish. He takes his man laterally, using his own knee to block and stay out of the guard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrIuft3czRo&feature=related

http:///www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmJFxkaUI0k&feature=related

Well, the Morote Gari is illegal now in judo.
I like the way Brian Picklo (ex NCAA wrestler/Judoka)sets his double.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z63m1Dws8CA

This is Rhadi Ferguson who was known to have one of the best double/singles(Morote Gari)in American Judo.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwWfhkB2jNY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z-XYTbyBNg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6kg37Yk-v4&feature=related

WOW! Thanks BA! As always...coming through with the goods. I will get back to you in a day or so when I can digest all the info!

I have a question about the single leg (head on the inside) (which is the way i learned it)

Arent you more susceptible to a knee strike? I always do my single leg takedowns with my head on the outside.

What are the advantages of head on the inside, as opposed to head on the outside?

Is it just to defend against the guillotine?

Head on the inside, your cheek is against his chest. Impossible to get hit with a knee there.

Head on the outside...you get choked.

Hmm,

I like to go really low for the single leg, grabbing the inside of the achilles heel and driving my shoulder into the shin or knee for the takedown, while my head is on the outside, my left arm acts as a sensor to block the guillotine. Its easier to gain side control or side mount this way. easier to do a sit out if they sprawl on you to take the back. If your head is on the inside you fall right into the guard.

Shooting a John Smith single with your head outside, if the shoot fails it is easy for him to pivot and take your back. Ensuring he does not close his guard is a much easier predicament in my book then defending the back mount!

JAB

well, you can always bar the outside of the right foot to keep him from pivoting, but that would leave you open to the guillotine, so you would have to act fast.
IF he manages to pivot, you can always sit out with the right leg and turn inwards, but that would leave your back open so again you would have to have a good skill in speed.


As for preferring to work from inside the guard, closed or open, and defending against a back mount, i guess that all depends on the skill of your opponent. But generally yes, you are right, it is harder to defend against a back mount then it is to defend against attacks from the guard. (sometimes) lol

How long you been training Robert?

9 years on and off. which is not that long, and im getting old (26)... but i still got a few good plays left in me.

Im now bracing myself for encouragement or disapproval. I fear both. lol

how about you? why do you ask?

Just curious, not looking to berate you or anything.
I have been doing martial arts in general for 19. REAL martial arts (I met Tim) for about 8, and BJJ full time for about 4 1/2.

Cheers
JAB

Awesome. I would be privilidged to spar with you guys and learn as much as i can, im sure you guys have PLENTY to teach. I know i say this a lot but i hope someday i can get tdown there and show you guys what im made out of! It's not much but i got a few tricks.

Most likely you will have to come "up" here as I live in Seattle. You are always welcome. Try to make to LA more and more though.

JAB

AW seattle... Lucky..

In some respects. The people up here need an... adjustment shall we say;)

I know... I dont like top heavy women either...

LOL... not exactly what I meant!

xD