There are so many people on these boards that talk like they are fine tuning their martial arts abilities, when they don't really know how to react when someone calls them a name.

The foundation of martial arts is fighting ability. Most of today's traditional martial artists seem to want to skip the part about actually learning to fight and go right to the master of enlightenment, warrior monk stage. People talking about how they plan to strike Gallbladder point 12 in a street fight, when they don't even know how to get out of a headlock. People want to talk about how ground fighting is ineffective when a high school wrestler could easily hold them down and beat the crap out of them. People need to do a little background training before they start talking about how to do use their Chi to blast away bad guys. Why don't some of you spend a few months boxing, and wrestling, before you decide that you just need to refine your thunder palm!

UFC guys may not be training to beat a drugged out guy with a broken bottle on the street, but what they are training will make them 10 times more effective then you will be.

Effective in what way?

we should just all box and wrestle. What's is the point of learning traditional Chinese martial arts when a few months of boxing and wrestling could simply destroy years of training traditional CIMA.

So traditional training obsolete. We should all train in UFC type martial arts because what they do is 10 times more effective.

Uh, yes...but if not, people should fess up to the fact that they do TMA (CMA, IMA, whatever) for cultural, spiritual or artistic reasons. I think Chris is just tired of reading all this unrealistic bullshit about how the Dragon Claw Fist (or whatever) is a realistic fighting method.

I agree with Chris: We should first learn how to punch someone in the nose. After that we can dress in pajamas, meditate and levitate and masterbate.

Yes, but how????

Well, first you must go some place where they punch each other in the nose, then participate. It's likely that others will punch you in the nose more at first, but soon you will catch on. Then go where people can throw, and submit you, then wrestle with them. At first they too will get the better of you, but soon you will catch on. Then after doing this for awhile you can talk about what you think works and doesn't work. Or you could go and pic some fights, either way you should see what it's like outside of pajamas.

Also, there are lots of guys who do martial arts as a hobby and enjoy warring Pajamas and dress's, I don't have a problem with these guys, they are usually not the one who come on talking about how they are deadly, or about how their master can beat 12 guys on the street, or about how trained fighters are really pussies.

Those bastards!!

Tim,

Do you think that "traditional" training is a waste of time? If you have to do it all over again...what and how would your training be structured?

Thanks.

'if you had to do it all over again'

Tim still trains non-stop. We spent 2 weeks together in Thailand recently- Tim was up at the crack of dawn every day working out for hours before breakfast.

'traditional' training never stops.

I understand you are asking him what he doesn't think was useful... but I'm letting you know he keeps what is useful and trains it daily.

Shane,

What I was getting at was that if "traditional" training was such a waste of time...then Tim wouldn't necessarily would have trained in kungfu san soo, XY, Bagua, Taiji, etc.

So yeah...if he has to do it all over knowing what he know now...would he simply do Muay Thai and BJJ or would he still train in Chinese Internal Arts?

Thanks.

Chuong Pham,

I understand your question, but I don't think I can give you a simple answer.

I will tell you the most important things I've learned: training methods are more important than styles, principles are more important than individual techniques and the hierarchy of real ability is: first, mindset; second, physicality; third, martial skills.

Tim is a classic.

Tim,

Can you expand and elaborate on your last statement regarding the hierarchy of real ability? Do you mean in terms of importance? Or do you mean in terms of how one would go about acquiring "real ability"?

Thanks!

Chinese martial arts have unique throwing and executing methods not found in other styles. Shui Chiao for instance aims to throw and off balance while not landing on top of the person, and often they land on their head, which is unlike Judo or wrestling.

Chuong Pham,

I mean in terms of importance.

You have to give the guy's from ufc some credit,at least there training and fighting. Even though i think there glorified tough man contests. Unlike most M.A. that talk about how they could have done this to you or that. and acually couln't squash a grape. Maybe we should hold no rules fighting for m.a. Bare fisted fights, but most people realy don't want to take the risk or acually have the m.a. skill to realy fight. They want the saftey of there karate tournaments,were ther is realy no threat of being hurt and they can still get there trophy. Training in the m.a. is great but to realy use it effectively in a fight when a 200lb. man is trying to beat your head in is another story.You don't have a ref saying break and saving your butt. Even if you dispute a so called masters skill, you can't fight him like you should be able to, once you beat the wannabee master his lawyer calles sueing you cause he's a punk. The old masters were great fighter's cause of the time that they came up in. Were fighting was the norm, you had to prove yourself, unlike today when you pay for your rank with dollers not fighting ability.
But that's just my opinion
Later.

I would like that MA comp no gloves. I think a box should be worn though. But just like athletics would the winners of the comps be the true best unaltered MA men. Or as is the case with most athletic comps the guy who came fifth trained hard and has the most natural ability while the guys standing on the podium have taken numerous performance enhancing aids over the course of a number of years. How many of the MMA/NHB/K1/UFC guys look like they do not take anything. If we teach MA to normal people we teach it to protect them in case they need it. Guys that win the current comps are not normal looking thus the stuff they teach is not applicable to the average man,women or child. How can these guys teach classes/seminars what can normal people learn, apart from what THG and Nandrolone does to the human body.

Maybe they take all the drugs to compensate for the lack of ability. It is hard to beat a 260lb. man coming at you like clubber lane. But how many people want to realy spend the time in this contry to realy train for life to stay healthy and maintaine a natural, healthy lifestyle? Most people bread ther kids to excell in sports so they will either be famous or rich. and most fail. Unfortuanly most people have to have everything now not 10 yrs from now.people are more woried about what people think of them rather than what they think of there self.(failure).People will always abuse drugs to enhance performance, but we have to make it more unexceptable rather than embracing it. Got a long way to go till then. nobody is ever satisfied with anything, look at bodybuilding, and how clownish those guy's look, but alot of people think its cool still. I think you have to try and master yourself, but m.a. has become so watered down and so expoloted, who is realy going to follow the riches path?
Later

Chuong Pham,

Tim never said his TMA training was useless. I know it's not because he uses it regularly to kick my ass. I was just confirming Chris' statement that it's tiring to hear how deadly everyone is getting by doing stance training and two-man forms. Sorry about the confusion.

Hi everyone.
In my experience, traditional training is best. It's not just about the valuable self-defence skills you may or may not take on board. Learning about yourself is the single most important thing that one can take away from a "traditional" class.
I attended a boxing course for six weeks and learned very little in the way of philosophy and respect. I did gain amean right hook, though.

Willard,

I know what you were getting at (i.e. nothing like a smack dab of realism to know whether your training is effective or not). And my question wasn't meant to imply that I thought that Tim had said that traditional training was a waste of time.

I had only directed the question to Tim since I figured that this is Tim's board and that he is a pretty well-respected martial artist who have had experiences with both types of training.

Just a little refutation by using the converse argument. Either way, Tim knew what I was getting at as was apparent by his answer.

Chuong