People just couldn't stop posting on this thread so here is an area just for you.

sorry SysOp but....

Mr Augier

Over the past week on this discussion board i have been witness to a persecution of such disrespectful magnetude that in all my time spent in Chinese Internal Martial Arts, it has never been my experience to encounter. You have carried yourself arrogantly and in a condescending manner. You have made no constructive criticism to what MrTao has generously offered, and have only attemped to ridicule him. Mr Tao has represented himself historically and factually,he has presented his Zuranmen practices clearly and has made extensive reference to the practices authenticity. You however, have made opinion based, subjective, and flippant comments, of which you don't seem to be able to back up with factual information in any way. you've deceptively side-stepped all requests to include your own views and knowledge of what you consider to be important when practicing the natural school boxing, as well as dodge answering the question of "Who is your teacher?". It sounds to us here, that you are the one with no grounding, that maybe you have been the liar here. Incidently i visited your zuranmen website since you weren't including any of the knowledge you claim to have here, and i was again let down to find only a very vague,and non-conclusive bunch of words, representing what you call Natural School Boxing.
Your lack of factual and constructive response has now caused you to appear both ignorant and arrogant. It seems like you may have some knowledge about other Nei Jia arts, you may even be able to fight well, but it seems very clear that cant speak intelligently about the philosophy or practices of Natural School Boxing.
The concensus amongst the guys training here is, that we fell sorry for Mr Tao to have had to deal with a man like you!

keep learning

Daniel in Beijing

P.S. Please don't speak on the subject of negetive Karma, as your actions and manner, clearly present your limited knowledge of such things and don't bother to retort by telling me to relax, the fact that we're all sick of your shit, doesn't represent our levels of tension.

WOW Guys!
I see why we're in a FLAME ROOM now! Look; it was originally little ol' me who asked Mr. Tao to give me some information on Ziranmen because I KNEW NOTHING about it -- not even its existence until I read a post on one of Tim's discussion boards.
My intention was not to start another name-calling match about lineage rites & rights, but rather to learn a little something (anything, but hopefully exercise & drill ideas) from this art.
I didn't expect to learn Ziranmen (on-line, from a book, or even from a teacher in person); I expected a sharing of ideas about exercises & drills. Serge shared his website, which if you read in an earlier posting, you may recall that he intends to elaborate on his basic course outline as time goes on -- if it appears that people are reading what he has to say. Serge has been very fair in my opinion.
As for Meynard, some others, & myself we're just exercising our inalienable right to speak (or in this case write) as we choose. There are those who object to such, and even some who would kill to stop the exercise of such a right; but before they completely take over the governments of the world (& they will), we who like freedom won't disallow free speach. Tim has allowed this discussion board to be a free one; so express your opinion(s) & try not to fret so much about others who do the same. Also recall that Meynard has been sick & may not have followed the discussion as clearly as he might otherwise have done.
If I happen to run across that Chinese book (which does sound interesting), then maybe I can get Tim to take a peek at it (as he does know some Chinese -- this being an understatement). And while Mr. Tao didn't stick to my main area of interest in his postings (due in large part to all of the squabbling), he did give me some ideas -- & recall that this is what I'm seeking. I plan on trying things & keeping what works (or what I THINK might work) for me.
Now, Mr. Tao, you have been thanked on this board in the past; I will write THANKS again. Even if you haven't come across as a "cool" individual, you have given me food for thought (for example: I'm practicing Xing-Yi's "Splitting-Palm" form in a linear fashion; now, after reading your post I will try it ocassionally using a circular walking pattern; another example is that you have repeated something that I've heard often concerning internal training: it takes time to produce results; the more I hear a concept, the more importance I tend to lend such; right or wrong, I tend to do this; I've heard such now from you, Tim, Serge, & K.G., so now I'll be certain to give some things more time to blossom). THANK YOU.
Some of you may not want to hear this, but I agree with Serge when he recommends that we all RELAX a bit. ALL STYLES (that I've seen so far) HAVE UNDERGONE CHANGE, so don't be too certain that Ziranmen is an exception (that what you've learned is "pure"). :-/
As for not naming an instructor. Sometimes people don't for sinister reasons; yet sometimes an instructor may wish anonymity (for whatever reason), so not naming names may just be a sign of respecting one's wishes. It (as well as outright lying) can also be a survival technique (so as to retain some element of surprise). I wonder (but not much) if the founders of all of the arts practiced today had trouble with people hounding them about their lineage & who gave them the credentials to be innovative (it's like asking which doctor taught the first doctor?; and here I am thinking creativity is an inalienable right; silly me)?.

dear all...

unseen levels of tension in Beijing.. irate lineage holders in Oz ... why is everyone so upset.. is your practice diminished because your claim to sole lineage has been questioned .. is your prestige reduced or your art devalued.... no .. none of these things... those things can only be judged by the depth of your gong fu, skill.. or by the comparison of your skills against another teachers...

so to history.. Tao, Daniel ... what if the people judging the truth of certain information have something to gain if it's "proved" to be accurate .. the question becomes how do they gain...

Tao...from a distance it appears weird.. you are a lineaged teacher of Tzuranmen... but teaching publically ... against traditions of the art.. and trying to stir up controversy ... how do you gain.. to promote your organisation, perhaps (sounds familiar .. BJJ, Wing Chun, Daito Ryu)...

I don't see Serge either selling anything or promoting himself on lineage, only on skills.. that's not to say the lineage isn't real... i don't know why Serge won't say anythng about his teacher but anyone wanting factual information should have a look at..."Esoteric Warriors" by Alex Kozma... it includes a chapter on Serge and his teachers..

all history is subjective... thanks to all for the training info.. wishing for harmony


stc

Right on, STC. That's a really interesting book Alex Kozma did, by the way.

Daniel from biejing, you are a prick.

This statement doesn't rationally explain why you think he is a prick. Can you embellish on why you think he is a prick?

hi everyone

thanks again OBserver for mentioning my little book , did you find in States coz i wonder if it ever sold there ?

i am often in China and..... Daniel , mr tao , i would be happy to meet up in the park one morning in beijing and lets train a little .

alex

For the most part your arguments do not make sense and are incorrect. The arguments sound like something my 6th grader would use.

Bob #2
You flatter me by recycling what I say. You even want my name.

P.S. I'm not English Critic

A Prowler/English Critic,

Are you complaining that you are unable to understand a 6th grader's logic or are you insulting the intelligence of your 6th grader?

Now I'm curious, why are you in a relationship with a 6th grader? Is such a thing legal in your state, country or village? Do you have anything in common?

Maybe you two will get along better if you refrain from statements like "your arguments do not make sense and are incorrect"... that type of manipulation will wear thin by the time your mate is in 9th or 10th grade.

best of luck,
Bob #2

it's "I'm not an English Critic"

(you're getting better though)