I have often heard it said that the students reflect upon the teacher. I have also heard it counseled many times that one should look at a school's students in order to check on the worth of the teacher.

One thing I have noticed in the tone of some of Tim's students is a lack of respect in many forms. Big Balled Betty is just the most glaring example. Tim's silence also speaks volumes.

If I didn't know better, I would assume that Tim teaches or supports his students' disrespect and disdain of other martial artists (ie. Park Bok Nam and others). I would assume that Tim also teaches or supports the opinion that he has surpassed his teachers in ability (such as the posts in relation to Luo De Xiu), also reflecting disrespect. You can always give people the benefit of the doubt once or twice, but when the signals are consistent, you just have to take the clue.

I may be alone in my "read" on this, I don't know. I am just curious as to how other people feel.

I was told in a previous post that

"You
might want to add the whole "you should be loyal
to your Sifu and style" thing while your at it."

As if there is something wrong with that concept!
I believe that you should be loyal to your Sifu and your "style" BUT you should also allow others to be loyal to theirs and RESPECT their right to be so.

Talk about disrespect!

Ok I'd just like to state that I am not a student of Tim, and I know neither him or his students.

I do feel however that it is a highly unfair
to denigrate one persons charecter due to the actions of others. Again, I do not know Tim or his behavior, nor I do not feign qualification on the subject of him or his students.

I have posted both questions and suppositions on this board and recieved a mixed bag of responses.
I have also spent an evenning reading all of the threads and observing some very fair comments and arguements. It would be true to say also that there has been some threads that have displayed some of the baser natures of those who participated. However some times we have to dig through the dirt to reach the diamonds.

I have crossed words with "The Betty" and noted a hint of sincerity in "what he/she believes" to be the case. This is fine with me as I also have strong convictions. I have had replies from others which have contained things I agreed with and others I did not. Some things I learnt from and others I saw that the person replying had not had the type of training or understanding that I do. This is also fine with me as I know from my twenty two years of martial arts that 'PEOPLE SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY, DEPENDING ON THEIR FOCUS'.

The fact that some can only express themselves with 'piss and viniger' is only a testement to a side of themselves that does not acknowledge the miriad diversity of truth. As a result they have missed that moment in time to experience something new or a new way of looking at something the thought they knew. But this is only a moment in time. People do learn.

An example, a guy learns a powerful technique (punch, block, kick, push) and has great sucess with it. It stands him in good sted for a while. Then suddenly his opponent is using his powerful technique against him. So "a guy" learns that some powerful techniques can in fact be harmful to him.
He may even find that power can be harmful to him (on a number of levels). Sometimes you have to let the student in you thrash it out untill a more refined method comes to light.
This is a pattern of learning for the student.

When you say "Tims silence speaks volumes" do you really know what he's saying?

When I have had replies from Tim (as Tim) I have found him to be succinct, honest and forthright in what he beleives.

If he beleives he has suppassed his teachers ability, and he has, then good for him. If he has not, then he will have lessons to learn, if he hasn't thus far. If he gives an imbalanced view of other teachers (I'm not saying that he does, co's I don't know) then both he and his students will have something to learn.

I do not agree with everything said by Tim, his students, or any others on this board, but I respect their contribution to the many view points and experiences of martial arts.

I suggest you do the same. espesh on his site.

It's true that many of the posters to this board lack any real understanding or respect for "wu de", martial virtue. Some are Tim's students, some are not. Is the teacher responsible for the cancerous character or moral failings of his students? For people not his students?

I suppose if Tim really cared to he could post some kind of sermon or remarks on being civil in postings. Instead, he pawns it off on Ron in return for free instruction. But I don't think the problem is with Tim. It's with each of the self-aggrandizing a$$holes who mistake their mean-spirited pseudomacho missives for aggressive, thought-provoking commentary. Like me ;^)

Sincere seekers like Henry just need to sift through the garbage for the genuine insights that Tim and others offer on training and strategy. If it gets too offensive for someone in here, the choice is simple: don't read or don't post here.

The problem with a censor is that it can be come like Patterson's hsing-i.com board: if you question the "master's" interpretation or party line or lineage claims, you'll get your post removed or perhaps get your ISP address excluded. Or the master will ask you to remove his URL from your site's list of links.

As in life generally, it's really up to us individually to decide what we'll put up with and how we'll conduct ourselves.

Tim's usual silence may speak volumes. Or he may just be trying to let the posters speak for themselves.

Most of Tim's students have had many years of martial arts training before they even came to Tim. some of Tim's students have been doing martial arts for 20 to 30 years. I believe that a lot of their opinions comes from the fact that they have a lot of experience with different teachers, some good, most are probably bad. There a lot of B.S. and charlatans in the martial circles. A lot of Tim's students have seen all the crap and have heard all of the lame excuses, and all the stupid claims that most martial arts teachers try to sell. Basically, Tim's students will never ever fall for any B.S. from anybody and they have little tolerance for other people who perpetuate a lot of the B.S. that goes around in the martial arts.

It wouldn't be fair to make Tim responsible for the opinions formed by some of his students. People have a mind of their own based on a lifetime of experiences. I don't think it's Tim's job to reform or erase all their bad experiences regarding martial arts. I don't think it's job to police his students. Tim doesn't teach children to be able to mold them to his own ideals. He teaches adults, mostly males, who come from diverse martial arts backgrounds and found that most of their martial arts training have been a complete waste of time, until they met Tim.

Training with Tim comes with certain illuminations regarding martial arts, especially Chinese martial arts.

Bao Wu De,
Here we go again, I've gone through this whole issue before, I'll try to keep it simple so you can understand. This is Tim's "discussion" board, not Tim's "propaganda" board. Although there are certain guidelines, the board is open to anyone in the world who wants to post. Short of racial slurs and direct threats, people are free to post whatever they want. Everyone else is then free to respond (that creates a "discussion" ).

I respond to direct questions about the martial arts and related training when I feel I have useful information. I post as myself. I have never posted about the skills of other teachers or practitioners (other than my own teachers)nor made any judgements about other styles or schools. I've also never posted anything about my own level of skill in comparison to anyone elses (including my own teachers).

The majority of people on this board you seem to have a problem with are not my students, but they have a chance to post their opinions just like you do. They are no more a reflection on me than you are. The people who post here are, in general, martial artists, ego clashes and arguments are part of the whole game. You can talk about flowers and puppies on other sites. If someone says something you don't like, you can respond, debate and/or argue with them as much as you like. A word of advice, you won't gain much respect by whining. If you feel the dialogue here is inappropriate, and hurts your feelings, there are many other boards to choose from.

>The people who post here are, in general, martial artists, ego clashes and arguments are part of the whole game. You can talk about flowers and puppies on other sites.Short of racial slurs and direct threats, people are free to post whatever they want.<

Nice to see SOMEONE has some standards.

Bao Wu De - I couldn't help but notice that when I clicked on your trite little "handle", you are an unregistered user. Is this a simple act of omission, or by design? Either way, it places you in the company of the vast majority of people who post to this board. More on that later...

I also couldn't help but notice your post was somewhat articulate; obviously written by a man of at least average intelligence. When a well-focused point is made by a man of reasonable intelligence, it is usually done so in support of an agenda. Bao Wu De, what is your agenda?

Your post was obviously no more than a thinly-veiled attempt to cast the character of Tim Cartmell (and his students) in a negative light. Painting someone with a broad-stroke brush (using the actions of others as the paint) is one of the oldest (and more sophomoric) dirty tricks in the book. Needless to say, your little "If I didn't know better..." disclaimer was also totally transparent. You damn well do know better, but that wouldn't serve your purpose, would it?!

I am proud to be a student of Tim Cartmell. Further more, I am proud to train with my fellow Ba Gua and Hsing-I students. I can state with complete certainty that I have NEVER heard Tim make one disparaging remark about another instructor, style, or school. Additionally, I can assure you I have never heard one of my fellow students trash another style or instructor.

The vast majority of negative posts on this board come from (unregistered) people who have never seen Tim Cartmell, let alone ever having trained with him. Did this ever occur to you? I'm sure it did. Then again, your agenda could not be served in recognition of this fact.

I (and I'm sure many other of Tim's students) would like to know who you are, what you do, and your martial arts affiliation(s). Please feel free to share with the group! We'd all like to be able to "connect the dots"...

P.S. How well do you know Henry Lee?

>Additionally, I can assure you I have never
>heard one of my fellow students trash another
>style or instructor.

It has happened here on the board more than once. Tim's student's are fond of calling Dr Painter a fraud. While I appreciate clear words I think if these words are just based on some pictures on his website or his lineage it does not have any value.

But it seems to be easier to stay with some predefined opinions than validate these by visiting on of his students in LA -- and I do not think that it is necessary to challenge someone to see whether he/she has some skill.

I do not know Dr Painter, maybe he is a fraud maybe not. But i think it is unfair to state such a judgement without ever meeting him or one of his (longtime) students.

>I (and I'm sure many other of Tim's students)
>would like to know who you are

I can not see that you have a profile, so you do not do what you would like other people to do.

Volker

Lao Tie Qiu,

WTF!!! Please define Wu De for the rest of us. What is your definition of martial virtue. Since you seem to know that most people who post here lack martial virtue it would be interesting to know you definition.

We don't need any censor in this board! What we need are people who have the balls to take responsibility for what they say. I've said it before. Create a profile with your picture, location, and e mail address. We need to have some public individual accountability. It's easy to be a smartass and a tough guy when nobody knows who you really are. This goes for everyone in here that post with a name other than their real name.

I'm, uh, turning off I.P. logging so that Lao can answer in relative anonymity.

Volker - Here is my contact information.

John Forguson
824 South Shanada Court
Anaheim Hills, CA
Ph. 714-974-8115
Cell 714-342-5976

I study Ba Gua and Hsing-I. I do not feel compelled to hide behind cute little screen names.

If my profile is not coming up, it is due to a problem with the registration process, not due to my not having completed it. I will contact SysOp immediately to see what the problem is. In any event, if you click on my handle, you can contact me directly, because my email address is linked through the profile. Certainly more than I can say for our friend Bao Wu De...

I do not know how many of Tim's "students" are actually involved in the Park issue. You seem to know more about who is behind the handles than I do. Is it one student? Maybe two? Three at the worst? And you support "Bao Wu De's" smearing of Tim, based on the actions of (a very few) others? Shame on you. What is YOUR agenda?

If you truly think what's transpired is wrong, THEN SAY SO. Confront the individuals responsible DIRECTLY AND IN PUBLIC. They are the transgressors; not Tim Cartmell, or the vast majority of his students, for that matter. This forum provides you the opportunity to do just that. Why do you feel compelled to take this passive / agressive stance in support of a coward's gain-motivated smear tactic?

If you had read my post more closely, you would have noted that I stated I had never HEARD anyone make a disparaging comment. I stand by that statement. In fact, we have been told to respect all styles (and that includes American Boxing) simply by virtue of the fact that a trained fighter of any discipline can be a dangerous opponent. Underestimate no one...

As Meynard alluded to in his post, this is an experienced (for the most part) group. They are tenured and skilled enough to know that there are both good and bad fighters in all disciplines. But, I digress...

Do you really feel it appropriate that Tim and his entire student body be smeared based on the actions of a VERY FEW individuals? Do you think Tim should censor what is known to all to be an OPEN DISCUSSION BOARD?

I take personal offense to being lumped in a group based on the actions of others. Generalization is the basis for bigotry, and I don't like it. Especially when it occurs for the gain of another.

Ron - Thanks! Worked like a charm.

JWF

I'll admit i also have a pretty immature sense of humor so I've often smiled at BBB's jokes. Of course I still find MAD magazine funny so what can you expect?

But the fact that BBB is actually one of Tim's students changes everything for me. There have been some instances of different students from Tim's school making rude/crude comments. BBB seems to just be one example.

It's strange. On the one hand I would be honored to meet and/or one day train with Tim (who is my older kungfu brother) and his students. But I'm often embarrassed by the outright childish antics that take place on this board sometimes by Tim's students and sometimes by others. It also bothers me that when Tim's name is mentioned on other boards he's remembered as the guy who thinks he's better than his teacher. That's unfortunate.

I also don't think this is a matter of censorship. i'm just guessing at bao wu de's meaning here but I don't think he was calling for that. The comment about "teaches and supports" implies what happens inside the school. The fact that Tim didn't refute his student when the student made the comment about Tim being better than Luo didn't help.

Tim, it's not my place to give you advice but maybe you should caution your students about what they say online. Childish antics are sometimes okay but not on the discussion board that bears your name. FWIW

Dave C.

Dear FunJohn

>You seem to know more about who is behind the
>handles than I do. Is it one student?

I do not know who is behind the handles and I have never stated that I know anything about this.

And I was not referring to the actual discussion about Park but the discussion about Dr Painter. It is not that hard, you have just to read my comment.

>And you support "Bao Wu De's" smearing of Tim,
>based on the actions of (a very few) others?
>Shame on you.

I have not supported anyone. I simply stated that some of Tim students are fond of calling Dr Painter a fraud without ever meeting him or one of his students. Go back to the beginning of the thread and read there -- not just the last week.

>Do you really feel it appropriate that Tim and
>his entire student body be smeared based on the
>actions of a VERY FEW individuals?

I have not said anything like this. I have not even said that it is Tim's responsibility. Maybe you should reread what I wrote.

Volker

Lao aka Tom;
When are you going to answer Meynard?

Volker - Don't play games here... Be a man and stand by your posts. You wrote, and I quote: "It has happened here on the board more than once. Tim's student's are fond of calling Dr Painter a fraud." End quote. Now you say: "I do not know who is behind the handles and I have never stated that I know anything about this." If you do not know who the handles are, then how do you know it's Tim's students doing the writing? You can't have it both ways - which is it?

The fact you wrote your post in support of Bao Wu De's "observations" lands you firmly in his camp. You can't sit on the fence and claim some kind of self-sanctioned neutrality, playing games of semantics on what you said-or-didn't say, or meant-or-didn't mean. In for a penny, in for a pound...

>Volker - Don't play games here... Be a man and
>stand by your posts.

I do stand up to what I said.

>If you do not know who the handles are, then how
>do you know it's Tim's students doing the
>writing?

Do not speculate so much, just read the thread. It is not that difficult, the only ability you need is to read. Not everybody on this board is using handles. And some others are using handles but everybody knows that they are Tim's student -- simply because they mentioned it in some thread.

>playing games of semantics on what you said-or-
>didn't say, or meant-or-didn't mean

There are differences in what a person is saying and in what another person is receiving. Maybe buy a good book about communication. It is good to be aware of the fact that many things you read in mails are made up by your mind and interpretation. Do not blame other people for your interpretation on what was written.

Btw I still get the following alert when clicking on your name: "The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available."

Volker

FunJohn;
Please read the E-mail I sent you about posting messages.

Volker - Thank you for the email alert. Ron and I worked through that yesterday, and I thought we had it fixed. Guess not... If you need my addresses, they are:

forguson@email.com
jforguson@bnisolutions.com

Seeing that you still don't "get it", I will try to spell it out for you. This will be very hard for me to do... I can neither read nor communicate, (and have very limited interprative skills) so writing is a tremendous challenge! :>

Volker - It is simply about GUILT BY ASSOCIATION.

In Bao Wu De's little smearmail, Tim is a bad teacher because of the actions of unkown persons and his "students" (lumped collectively in to one big stinking pile of sh*t). It doesn't matter that Tim has never personally defamed another teacher, school, or style. Someone he knows/maybe knows/doesn't-know-at-all has, so there we go! Instant guilt!

After my response to Bao Wu De's post, you felt compelled to join the fray with information presented in support of his position. Right, wrong or indifferent, here's how it works:

- Posters on Tim's open discussion board say bad things about other schools, instructors, and/or styles.

- Tim says nothing, so that means (by omission) he feels the same way (implied logic).

- Therefore, he must engage in this practice himself, and is guilty-as-charged.

Here's how it worked for you, Volker:

- Bao Wu De smeared Tim and his students.

- Volker posted supporting dialog.

- Therefore, Volker is guillty of smearing Tim and his students.

Get it???

This is serious stuff. If you read Dave C.'s post, other people on other sites now know Tim as the guy who thinks he's better than his teachers. This is a claim he has never personally made, yet because it came from one of his students, he is saddled with it. Now, people who don't even know him think he actually said it. Get the connection?

I guarantee you that right now, somewhere, there is someone who's seen Bao Wu De's post, and now has lodged in the back of his/her mind that Tim is a teacher seriously lacking in martial virtue. The next thing you know, in casual conversation out comes "I really don't know that much about him, but I hear he...", and we have the same scenario described by Dave C. Untrue, but believed none-the-less.

I still believe there was strong motivation behind Bao Wu De's post, and I always will. I've seen his little trick pulled (in a far more sophisticated manner) many times in business, especially in negative PR campaigns.

I simply cannot and will not stand by and watch this type of thing spiral. Like I said before, I've seen this movie, and I know how it ends.

Just maybe, some of the actors in this little re-make we have going on right now should ponder the fact that Tim (and many other instructors, also) teach martial arts as their sole means of support. This means that:

- Anything interfering with their reputations dissuades students from seeking their services.

- Lost students=lost money

- I'll let the literate finish the equation...