dude..

tekken tag team gives you thumb jing..

stc

First you claim to have the original tai ji.
Reply]
Hmmmm, not really what I meant. I said the line I am studing claims that. I "Think" it's possible the 64 move form may be that old, but I also stated the 37 is probually newer, possibly in the last 50 years. It's not like I'm trying to hide anything here. I'm as open as I can be.

Just so you know - The system contains the 8 postures from 4&8 gates, 64 move form the 37 move form (Several methods of performing it), Taiji Elbow form and various levels of pushhands and sticky hands.

When I talk of a single component of this system, it does not mean I am speaking of the whole system. It is very possible the 64 was created when God made the earth (That was sarcasum by the way), and later or even yesterday the 37 was created by blending the 64 with the Tai tzu chang chuan internal form.

>>Then you admit it's just a mixture of other tai ji styles from some family in Taiwan.

Reply]
Not just some family, the Chao family. They are direct descendants of Chao Kuang Yin, the founder of the Sung dynasty. They have a martial history that goes back over 1000 years. Thier styles have influanced a great number of others at some point in time. Entire new styles evolved from it or were influanced by it (Like Chen Taiji, North Mantis, and Ngo Chor). Heck, I found some Shaolin history that seemed to indicate that Tai tzu was the core of Shaolin teaching during the Ming dynasty. When the Ming royal family ran South from the invading Manchurians, the Chao family is documented as going with them. And you say they are just some family from Taiwan?? Lord, you don't know how funny that is to me!!!

>>Then you say you learn via video correspondence from some guy in the states, not the direct guy from Taiwan.
Reply]
So?? He was trained by Chao, Yuh Feng (The great nephew of Chao, Jung Dao, same guy who brought Taiji Ruler public in the 50's), the head of the family that invented Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and the 37 move Taiji form I am refering to. He is a 37th generation inheritor of the families style (first generation US). He earned his Master's degree in the families Taiji Quan system, why shouldn't I learn what he has to offer?

>>Then you add that it's tai ji but with HEAVY liu he ba fa influence. You teach tai ji that you learned from a video and have some other non tai ji guy correct your video tai ji.

Reply]
So?? I don't hide it. I'm not pretending it's pure. Also, internal tai tzu has similar mechanics as LHBF as the internal comes from Chen Po. He was LHBF's founder. The founder of Tai Tzu was a student of the founder of LHBF. At the internal levels, the similarites are striking. Would you have preferd me to go to a Yang style or Hsing I guy for help?? Or a freind who already studies a compatable style, with compatable mechanics?

>>The coup de grace is that you're actually a shaolin guy who learned from a Master Tsai, (actually his seniors) whatever that means.

Reply]
That means I learned in his school, but not directly from him. I also spent time under Master Steven Abbate (Another of Tsai's seniors, but also well trained in another Kung Fu style). From there I studied Long Fist under John Grammatis for a few years. It was pretty much all the same stuff, just different teachers (Not video by the way).

>>I'm thinking that you just got video lessons from that late night infomertial with Master Tsai and Danny Bonaducci.

Reply]
No, but Danny was a funny guy and i'm glad I was able to meet him on occasion.

>>What's next? You train mostly by playing video games? sheesshh!

Reply]
Actaully, I hate video games. I train by practicng my Kung Fu, Taiji Quan and Qi Gong much the same as everyone else. I don't know if you think I just watched videos and think I know Kung Fu or what, but I can assure you I have logged considerable hours in live practice, training and two man work (Including HARD core full contact free fighting with few rules). In fact when I was in My mid 20's it was not uncommon for me to go months on end doing 4-6 hours a day 5-6 days a week. This was real blood, sweat and tears Kung Fu, not sitting on the couch watching video's and eating popcorn like you seem to think.

As an example, three times a week I would hold 18 seperate Deep postures in a row for 3 minutes each posture, no breaks rest or cheating until it was over. Just one posture after another with smooth transitions (As oppsed to standing up and shaking your legs out between each one) Most people I know can't even do the set holding for one minute let alone 3.

Even today I continue to advance as much as I can. I currently train with my LHBF friend, I spar semi regularly with a Kempo black belt (A former Marine) and practice with an under ground Shui Chiao group.

The Tai Tzu thing is a pet project, and not my only practice (I would'a thunk common sense would have told you that one).

As I have said before, you underestimate me, and are not giving me enough credit.

Nothing I am doing is wrong or improper.

I think your an elitest, and too quick to bash others. It's unbecomming of you as a human being, and a martial artists.

Gian

I admire your ironic determination to doggedly follow sys op's directions about sticking to the thread topic.

err..

hold on a minute...

"Also, internal tai tzu has similar mechanics as LHBF as the internal comes from Chen Po. He was LHBF's founder. The founder of Tai Tzu was a student of the founder of LHBF."

you also said

"Not just some family, the Chao family. They are direct descendants of Chao Kuang Yin, the founder of the Sung dynasty. They have a martial history that goes back over 1000 years. Thier styles have influanced a great number of others at some point in time. Entire new styles evolved from it or were influanced by it (Like Chen Taiji, North Mantis, and Ngo Chor). Heck, I found some Shaolin history that seemed to indicate that Tai tzu was the core of Shaolin teaching during the Ming dynasty"

how is this possible.. i mean what did the guy have a time travel device.. learn Liu He Ba Fa and then travel back in time to found Tai Tzu which then influenced all the styles which were synthesised into LHBF .. durrr

Royal Dragon.. i'll tell you what i believe.. this is all bs..there is no such thing as Tai Tzu.. you have either been conned or are part of the scheme.. i don't underestimate you and will give you sufficient credit for having a real go at sellig snakeoil

WTF

ps as a first step perhaps you would put up the chinese characters for Tai Tzu..

There is a style of CMA called Tai Zu (Tai Tzu) Quan. It is traditionally believed to be created by Song Tai Zu, the founder of the Song Dynasty, whose name was Zhao(Chao) Kuang Yin. There are records of the style as early as the Ming Dynasty. The famous general Qi Ji Guang wrote that "Tai Zu Quan is made up of 32 postures of Long Fist (Chang Quan)." This style is now popularly referred to as 'Tai Zu Chang Quan' (Tai Zu Long Fist).

There is a separate style of martial art also called Tai Zu Quan that is popular in Southern China and Taiwan, which emphasizes hand techniques. I knew a teacher of the southern Tai Zu Quan in Taiwan. There are only a few forms, they are done extremely fast, with maximum force, it is at the extreme 'hard' end of the spectrum.

As far as I know, neither Tai Zu Chang Quan nor the southern Tai Zu Quan have any relation to Liu He Ba Fa.

Hey Tim

thanks for the authoritative...i stand corrected and will duly put on a dunces hat..

as an aside .. have you heard of any connection between tai Tzu and Tai Chi, Ba Gua etc.. from the various Tai Tzu websites it is made out to be the main progentor of all CMA.

WTF

Hello,
As for the connection to Tai Chi, it is believed that General Qi Jiguang taught Chen Wangting the Tai tzu style, and it was an influance the creation of Chen Taiji. Adam Hsu teaches the set may have been the same set refered to in this instance (from Liu Yun Chiao's lineage).

As for Hsing I and Bagua, I can't say. One of Chao, Yuh Feng's seniors claims Tai tzu is the original Hsing I, Bagua and Taiji. BUT, this same indivudual (Who hapenes to be the current inheritor ) SOLD the position belonging to my sifu to a Karate school owner with only two years in Tai Tzu. Actually, it was the Chao family Taiji, and not even Tai Tzu but still, I know more about it than this guy does.....

Also, the same guy is teaching Chin Woo forms and saying they are the external Tai Tzu. My Sifu and his "Older" brother no longer speak over the incedent.

The whole thing actually spured me to research the style from as many different sources as I can.
What I found out so far is the forms my Sifu is teaching me are legit, but he also does not know the entire external system (He knows mostly the Northern). I know for sure he is mising the final 2 Southern sets.

Anyway, from lookig at the internal form from Liu Yun Chiao's lineage (I got lucky and stumbled across someone who had a video shot in a parking lot of it), I CAN see elements of all three, so who knows. Plumb publications is planning a comercial production of the set, and they tell me it will be ready in a few months. Call them and ask about it, it may hurry them along.


Tai Tzu is made up of several styles, one being the Southern Tai Tzu Quan Tim mentioned above. All were developed or practiced by the Chao Family wile they were ruling the Sung dynasty. The Southern only has 6 forms. Some say there are also 2 closed door sets, but my chances of ever seeing them are not to promising. It's a very direct and straight to the point fighting art. It's first form is a Karate "Like" dynamic tension set called San Zhen. It is belived to be a forunner of the Sam Chein of Okanawia Karate (Ngo Chor guys claim that one, personally, I don't see it)

I am missing San Pan and Yi Lu. I would love to make contact with more people who train in the style. infact Tim, if you still have contacts with your freind in Taiwan, do you think it would be possible to help me out? I don't speak Chinese, but it's on the "to do list" would you care to translate for me? My first mission is to get the correct mechanics and practice methods for the Southern style. It's VERY different that the internal, and my LHBF guy can't really help me with it. I would like to get the rest of the Southern forms if I can. My Sifu does not have the 2 I'm missing, and the other contacts I have won't send me video of them. They want me to move to Australia and learn personally. It's not possible, but would love to do that anyway, if I could. His line is apparently from Suthern China, and the names of his forms are a bit different. I sent him video of myself doing all the sets I know, and he reviewd me. He confirmed every set I sent him was legit Tai tzu, but said I neede help with my basics. Apparently my past practices were influancing the Tai Tzu and he could see it. Since then I did manage to figure out what I was doing wrong, adn I have improved but there is still a long way to go, and the video learning thing is really hard.

Tim, does your friend ever come to the states? Do you ever go to Taiwan and visit him? When the time is right, do you think you would be willing to set up a meeting and exchange of skills?? I would really like to spend some time learning from one of the guys trained in Taiwan if I can, but I don't have any contacts there. Even if it's only basics, and review of what I have now.


Contact me at royaldragon@netzero.net

Thanks,

Gian

Oh, on the LHBF thing the founder of Tai Tzu, Chao Kunag Yin (The Emperor) was said to practice Chi Gong with Chen Po (LHBF's founder) in his youth. Apparently once he became Emperor he summend Chen Po to continue his training, but Chen Po refused.

I think there is an explanation of that on Wai Lun Choi's site. http://www.liuhopafa.com/

Basically, the Taiji ruler from the Tai Tzu Chang Chaun system comes from Chen Po, as well as the mechanics and principals found in the internal Tai tzu. That is the connection. Do some research, it's documented some where, I found it. try looking into Taiji Ruler, and LHBF.

My beliefe that the internal form is linked to LHBF really came to frutation when my LHBF freind started poitning out the similarities with his style. LHBF has no breaks, and the Tai Tzu internal form is full of them, but other than that the similarity is pretty profound. The sequences are different, but you really see the similarites when you compare the two side by side, at least in principal of movement anyway.

The exteral Northern Tai tzu is kind of like Cha fist in flavor. The Southern is sort of like Hsing I being performed by a Karate guy, kind'a, sort'a.

If any of you want to see Tai tzu in action, Shaolin Brand inc. sells a video showcasing the style and it's various sister arts that are usually taught with it. I will post the URL to thier site later when I have time to find it. Shaolin Brand inc does come up under a search though.

Gian

Also Wing Lam has some of it in their "Ten Famous Shaolin Boxing" series, tape # 5

This sounds curiously like the Temple Kung Fu/Shaolin Do/Chung Moo Quan party line.

"We have the original complete martial art. Everything else was fragmented from us. Come learn from us as we are COMPLETE and have EVERYTHING."

In fact Royal Dragon, aren't you a Chung Moo guy yourself?

"We have the original complete martial art. Everything else was fragmented from us. Come learn from us as we are COMPLETE and have EVERYTHING."

Reply]
When the he1l did I say THIS??? I never said THAT!!! I don't belive that, and I have been very careful to say Tai Tzu has influanced a number of arts or evolved into others. I never said the art was the "Original complete art" as you are trying to falsely claim.

For your information, there is NO ORIGINAL MARTIAL ART!!!!! Don't go pulling BS off of David Kash's site or his little lackie's site and then trying to attribute it to ME!! He is a total back stabbing fraud, and my Sifu does not even speak to him anymore over the stunts he's pulled.

Even if there WAS an original do all, end all art, do you think it would be Tai tzu?? It was created in 960 AD for god sake!!! Chinese martial arts go back for 4-5 THOUSAND years, not just a little over a thousand. How could it be the original??

Infact, don't go attempting to tie me to any of those frauds. I have spent the better part of FOUR YEARS researching legitimate and real tai tzu chang chuan. I'm not going to have some YO, Yo attempt to make me look bad by tieing me to statements I DON'T make, DON'T belive, would never make and are completely rediculious.

If you guys want to go and lynch someone, go lynch Ashida Kim or Sin 'The. I won't stand for it.

I created the Flame room so that you can go on a tangent here and keep the thread from which it was spawned on track. Or, you can also do your own thing. The rules don't apply in the Flame room except for language, racial slurs,etc.
Just remember if you wanted to post your thoughts for posterity you should have gone back up to the main thread or created a new subtopic. This is a transit area of the board.

If you had drilled down coming from the main Topic board you would have seen this:

I have created this room for those who just have to get their licks in or enjoy the flame game for fun & entertainment. Please feel free to create your own threads preferably relating back to a discussion on the Topic:Subtopic.

hum

grandmaster livingston - sucks
grandmaster kash - sucks
soke dai seibert - sucks
royadragon- sucks

me - sucks but at least i know it

WTF

WTF

Your a pathetic troll. You don't know any of us, least of all me. Livingston is recognised world wide as an authority on Tai tzu. He's involved with the Kuo Sho in Baltimore, and often serves as a judge for the competitions. You can say he sucks all you want, but he would still fold you like a cheap napkin faster than you can say "Mommy".

How does one become a grandmaster anyway? What's up with that?

How about being a Soke? I know of only one legitimate Soke in America.

Royal Dragon

Over to email if you want to arrange it. I want to be folded like a cheap napkin before I can say mommy.

WTF

Why is it that it's usually some emperor who is the founder of some martial art? I think practitioner believe what they want to believe.

Oh, yeah...about the Master Tsai thing. I was just kidding about that at first. I didn't think you're teacher's teacher was the real Master Tsai from the infomertial. Master Tsai...un-freakin' believable!

What ever....................................

Royal Dragon
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
YOU ARE FULL OF IT, ****, THAT IS.
(I PUT YOUR NAME IN LOWER CASE BECAUSE LIKE YOU IT MEANS NOTHING).
GO BACK TO CHUNG MOO, WHERE YOU BELONG.

SILLYBILLY

Royal Dragon,

I think the reason people are so sceptical round these parts is as follows (I mean, this is certainly why _I'm_ sceptical of the lineages you report, etc., and I think it's also why most of the other sceptics here are sceptical - I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm off-track):-

If you've been around CMA for a while, or indeed any MA, you begin to understand how MA work as a social phenomenon, how they come to be in society. Number one reason is of course effectiveness (as exercise, as sport, as fighting skill, as self-defence, as art - and in the old days, of course, they would have been the main part of military skills, but that's rarely their function nowadays, since guns have made MA obsolete in that regard); number two reason is so that enthusiasts can feel like they're doing something "cool". (Little boys especially are forever comparing which x is the most powerful, what would "beat" what, etc., and as we grow up, we males just play more and more sophisticated versions of this game - it's like women chat about people, and men chat about things, statistics, theories, etc.)

These two tendencies tug in different directions. If effectiveness (functionality qua exercise, self-defence, etc.) is what's sought, the natural pull is in the direction of reality (i.e. eventually you'll zero in on what's effective). If what's "cool" is sought, the natural pull is in the direction of fantasy (eventually you'll zero in on the coolest story, irrespective of reality).

Now of course we're after both: we're after something that's functional but also cool, something that "throws shapes". But if you're _primarily_ after functionality, you'll be quite happy to sacrifice "cool" (cool stories, stats, etc.), whereas if you're _primarily_ after "cool", you're in danger of losing track of functionality, and fooling yourself.

Now, as a digression, I'm a musician, and my understanding is that there are basically two (why two again? - again, this is more like a polarity than a cut-and-dried either/or thing) ways in which tunes can come about: either they can be created by individual or collaborative genius. Some tunes are composed by genius individuals (or small groups of individuals); but some evolve in the way that jokes or urban myths evolve - nobody in particular invents them. Somebody invents a bit of a tune or a story or a joke, passes it one, and somebody else changes it slightly, perhaps without knowing it, until eventually something really "good" comes about. (Actually these are just two kinds of evolutionary process - one proceeding in an individual brain, the other distributed between lots of brains.)

It would be pretty "cool" if MA developed by being invented by geniuses in the first way (somewhat like tunes are sometimes created by individual geniuses).

But the way MA, including CMA, develop is actually more like the second way: it's just sweaty guys beating the crap out of each other in various ways, and passing what's effective on down to their students, who beat the crap out of each other, and pass on ... and this happens over decades, hundreds of years, thousands of years (with lots of breaks because of culture breaks, but that's another story - it just means the wheel gets constantly reinvented, but our basic physiology makes it fairly easy to reinvent). Occasionally some genius (or not-so-genius!) comes along and reforms or reorganises (like General Qi, who synthesised a whole bunch of different systems of his day into one set suitable for quick military training, the set that eventually became part of the Chen style Laojia; or like the Communists "rationalised" Wushu). But it's very rare for systems to be invented out of whole cloth, from the ground up. Usually masters inherit something, and then they alter it slightly.

So, if one understands things this way, the alarm bells start ringing when one hears fancy lineage stories tracing back to genius "founders". Experience and nous tell one it's just not how these things work.

Then, given this understanding, it looks like the kinds of "cool" lineage stories you are offering are more oriented towards the "cool" end of the spectrum; and chances are, they're oriented so far towards the "cool" end of the spectrum they're not likely to represent anything very effective or functional.

You may not agree with this analysis, but I think something like this is probably at the back of most sceptics' minds.