I wanted to share an expierence with all.I injured my back in a accident.L-4 l-5 Juncture.Surgery was recomended.Fortunately someone suggested Yoga.I picked up this video by chance and the actually travelled and took some lessons from a man named Richard Freeman.He is incredible.

To make a long story short Ashstanga Yoga healed my back and I am back practicing martial arts again pain free.

In my expierence Tai Chi,Pa Qua and Hsing I did not seem to alleviate this injury like this form of yoga did.In some case they actually aggravated the injury.This not saying that yoga is superior or anything at all.Just an expierence i would like to share.

I am not peddling this man either,he is one of the most saught after teachers of Yoga.

www.yogaworkshop.com

Tim told me that Hickson Gracie practices yoga and attributes a good portion of his skill to its practice. My San Soo teacher was and I believe still is a yoga practitioner. No doubt it is quite beneficial.

I recently purchased a begginers' book on yoga (it glosses over several types & offers sample exercises); I did this because my back was giving me problems (after I over-did my Xing-Yi exercises). SURPRISE, SURPRISE! Many of the exercises presented in the book were quite similar to the Xing-Yi exercises (and they mentioned not to over-do it, but rather to break into it slowly as with any exercise). However, the Xing-Yi exercises as taught by Tim are better than the instructions given in the yoga book. I can see how that ol' Indian monk travelled to China & gave 'em yoga knowlege & how the Chinese then added to it (their own twists) -- and even how the Chinese in turn brought it to Okinawa & Japan (where the Japanese put their own twists to it).
The book has some beneficial exercises that aren't covered in the Xing-Yi exercise set; some of these specifically work the back & surrounding areas. Based on what I've seen so far I would recommend the Xing-Yi exercise set offered by Tim & I would recommend yoga exercises. Posture & breathing are emphasized by both (hey, good stuff is good stuff).

P.S.: Bob, if your San Soo instructor was Ted Sias, then yes, he's still a yoga practitioner (I am of the impression that he's very knowlegeable about yoga; I'll probably pay him a visit & pick his brains for some pointers on the yoga exercises I plan to add to my Xing-Yi set).

I agree Yoga is fantastic. Although, the sets of exercises that I have learned from Tim seem to be exactly what is needed for martial arts training and overall health. I am very excited that he's finishing up his work on internal exercises. I can't wait for it to be out.

I've shown a friend of mine some of the sets that Tim has worked with me on and he's stated the his Uncle Ruby (who was some type of Swami or something) did very similar exercises. He passed away having sex with 27 woman in a brothel (as the story goes) Of course, you understand how things get exagerated. We refer to him as 'the KALI' and I know he's very excited about Tim's next publication also.

good training,
Macaco fino

Folks,

When I first injured my back I did not know what the problem was.I figured a pulled muscle or some minor problem.However my knee gave out soon gave out after the injury and I had full fledged foot drop.My injury had gone beyond pain and into muscle dysfunction,which I have since learned is not all that uncommon,with prolaspes or ruptures of the disc.

Needless to say I am amazed in looking back how I was initially misdiagnosed by health practicioners of all ilks.Finally a good old ortho gave me the proper diagnosis.Being of the conservative school he recomended Yoga and Richard Freemans video.I picked up the video and did some in person lessons,of which I will be forever grateful.

The reason why I feel Yoga is particulary beneficial to disc injuries are many.Most importantly is the emphasis on extension practice which has a re centralizing tendency for the jelly like material in the center of discs.Internal martial arts IMO,do not work as fundementally on this action.

Also when doing a flexion or forward bending type posture,there is always that little extension component inherent in the flexion posture and or movement if the Yoga is being properly taught.Very thearaputic.

In practicing martial arts, I have had the expierence and I have seen others as well in their striving to have a flat and not swayed lower back,go to far the other direction in attempting to have a flat back and put pressure on their lower discs.This has been my expierence.It was very bad for my back.This overstriving to have a flat back combined with the twisting and turning in Pa Qua Tai Chi and Hsing I,was the perfect recipe for a disc injury,in my particular case.And I learned the hard way.

I have since discovered another way to keep a relatively flat back and that is not by forcing the issue,but by gently letting the lower back region fill up.A different approach.In looking back I am flabergasted by how many high level martial artists who are teaching the subject and giving seminars on the health benefits DO NOT know even the most basic anatomical considerations and symptoms of serious back injuries,much less the healing movements for this region.And internal martial artists are teaching risk factors that are inherent to disc injuries these being,twisting bending and forward flexion type movement.People of Norther European descent and between the ages of 35 to 45 are paticularly at risk for disc injuries.

One other point that has been helpful for me.For me my legs get very big and muscular from internal martial arts practice.I have a tendency to become very unbalanced between quadriceps being large and muscular and hamstring being tight.Simply stretching my hamstrings after practice has alleviated a lot of potential back problem for me.

I will have to get Tims material on posture,it sounds like it would be very worthwhile.

Hi all,

I'm in full agreement on the benefits of Yoga (although I haven't practiced it). And I have two things to add.

1. You should check out'Healing Back Pain' by a 'Dr Sarno' (spelling?).
He gives great (although monotone) explanations of what actually causes back pain- and it'll help explain how yoga helps. It could change your life.
You could probably find the (2)cassette series at a local library.

2. yep, it is sad to know that well intentioned idiots are telling health conscious students to flatten out their lower back. (One of my favorite Tim quotes: "the lower back curve is there for a reason, a million years of evolution can't be wrong". I too spent the first few years of Tai Chi training trying to keep my lower back straight... I'm just glad I know better now.


The Dr. Sarno lecture CD or Cassette is worth checking out by anyone who suffers from back pain.

Now that this topic has come up, I'd like to take the time to comment on the concept of "flattening the lower back." I hope everyone out there practicing "Internal" styles reads the post by Anonymous above. I've been lecturing on the folly of trying to completely "flatten the lower back" for the last ten years. If you have been taught to curl your tailbone under, and you hold yourself this way, you will greatly decrease the power of your body at best, and may suffer from structural problems if you continue to practice this way for a length of time.
How anyone can believe that tensing the psoas muscles and thighs to force the lower back into an unnaturally flat alignment is somehow "natural" is beyond me.
Look at a high level athlete in any sport, especially sports in which the coordinated power of the whole body is involved (gymnastics, track and field, power lifting...) and you will find not one athlete curling their butt under. Why? because they would never have gotten to that level of competition if they had.
The largest muscles of the body all have one end attached to the pelvis. To distort the alignment of the Center (either by pulling the hips under or over-arching the lower back) are probably the most efficient ways to decrease your power.
For those of you who have been taught to force your lower back flat, please give what I have said some thought. Just because a poorly translated book on Tai Ji Quan or a "master" is parroting the partyline and telling you to curl your tail under shouldn't cause you to suspend common sense.

Tim,

Thanks for your response.I wished I would have had an instructor with your insight and good sense to not blindly follow misinterprated convention.

As I stated it took me a while to come to this realization.And as far as some of the big names teaching this technique as well as giving workshops on the benefits of health among chi gung and "internal" styles, I can only shake my head.

As an example say one is teaching a person how to open the gates for more energy.Using this technique of flatting the back or tucking the butt,or keeping the lower vertabrae plumb errect,or whatever one calls this.

If one does this technique as some teach it and thru this method start to develop bulges and full flight ruptures of the disc.And as stated above I believe it can in fact do this.

The disc or ruptured member of a disc begins to put pressure on a nerve root creating pain or worse muscle and innervation dysfunction.Somebody please tell me how this is opening an energy gate? It is preposterous,and in fact is and has the potential to close the body down in a big time way

I listened to a famous martial artists give an explaination of how the "internal" arts help maintain and heal low back problems on a national show some time ago.

This "expert" stated that the vertabrae become misaligned and "internal "practice realigns.While not entirely disagreing with his asseretion,his basic premise showed a real lack of knowledge of what occurs far more commonly.

The vertabrae do not simply become misaligned causing pressure.What is far more common is through activities such as striving to have a "flat back" and other dangerous risk factors such as improper lifting ,bending and twisting,the disc become "bulged" or worse yet ruptured leading to muscle spasm.This spasm is a protective response to the injury.The protective spasm is what pulls the vertabrae out of alignment in many cases.The injury does not have to be of a very serious nature to set this cycle in action.And yes Sam,Dr Sarno,s material was very helpful to me in this regard.

My overall point is be careful how you practice and be VERY careful whose hands you put your health in.Many passing themselves off as healing experts,in some cases do not even have the basic mechanical knowledge of many maladies.

To Anonymous,
Please don't condemn internal martial arts practice as bad for one's health. To the contrary, they are quite good (especially for the spine & legs). Any activity taught/learned incorrectly has a risk factor (that otherwise wouldn't exist if the activity had been taught/learned properly).
You've been unfortunate in that you've been improperly instructed by one or more "internal" instructors, whereas I've been fortunate to have been told about & then subsequently meet Tim for proper instruction. I had pre-existing spinal, hip, knee, etc. problems when I first met Tim, yet "internal" arts exercises as taught to me by Tim have been very good for my body's rehabilitation (when I use common sense & don't over-do it).
Early on I had an experience in Shotokan Karate training. Apparently two students -- of the Okinawan man who introduced Okinawa-te (Karate) to Japan proper -- brought their Japanese-flavored Okinawa-te to the U.S. They called this style "Shotokan."
Whether both learned improperly, or whether their instructor was experimenting (or keeping vital parts of his Okinawan system secret from the Japanese), their "Shotokan" was different from some other countries' "Shotokan" (as more than just the U.S. had Shotokan instructors crossing their borders); and of those two students (who studied with their instructor at different times), each had a different "Shotokan."
This is understandable, but what's amazing is that each had different principles of posture! One group tucks-in the tailbone un-naturally while the other sticks-out their butts un-naturally. I trained in both schools for a short while. I FELT the butt-stickers had more power than the tail-tuckers (but I couldn't convince my former tail-tucking instructor of this -- he would'nt even try it).
Well, it turns out (as I have actually FELT in Tim's class) that a natural posture is even more powerful than butt-sticking (who wants to be known as a butt-sticker anyways?). These two Shotokan practitioners were hailed as masters of Karate & had many die-hard (hard-headed) followers. Originally I tucked in my tailbone (inspite of it FEELING WRONG) because my instructor insisted that this was the anatomically correct way (& he was also a college anatomy proffessor) -- so who was I (with only my common sense)?
Not all "internal" instructors learned correctly themselves. China boasts a "national treasure" in a "master" of Ba-Gua who has trained "masters" himself. This guy is a skinny little guy who holds his lower guarding hand angled way out in front of his ribcage & he walks with one leg rather stiff -- "as he learned from his master." Actually, as he mis-learned from his master. His master was a fat man with a limp. His master held his arm near his belly area, but being fat this required that his arm be at a different angle than a skinny practitioner protecting his lesser girth. And his students didn't need to limp either (his leg was bad, not theirs)!
BUYER BEWARE! Ask questions & use common sense (if answers don't make sense, then your teacher probably doesn't know real answers -- though he may be convinced otherwise; so move on).
{)

>Mike,

I am not at all implying that internal martial arts practice is deleterious.I was just expounding on an expierence that I had,realizing that my expierence is not somebody else,s reality.

>Tim,

I have begun incorporating a technique from Yoga when practicing which I have found to be helpful.It is called uddiyana and mula bandha.Bascically it is is the pulling in and up of the tantien region and connecting of this region with that of the perenieum.

It is basically what Pilates teaches as well as some other modalaties as a strengthening technique and protective measure for the "CORE".

I realize that for some in Internal Martial Arts any tightening or contraction in this area is a BOZO NO NO.

In yoga however,they teach that for one muscle to lenghten or "stretch",the opposite muscle must contract,or strengthen.

This seems to very in harmony with the theory of yin/yang ect.

I am thinking and wondering,if one uses the technique mentioned above one will have a slight tautness and strengthening occuring in the front dan tien region that will allow for a simultaneous loosening and opening action in lower back region?

Anonymous,
I learned the bandhas when I practiced Yoga as a child. I think they are extremely useful as designed. You are mistaken about the lifting of the perineum and lower belly as being a no no in the Chinese Internal arts. Any teacher of the Internal (traditional Internal) will recommend the slight lift in the perineum. The lower belly is naturally lifted if the overall posture is correct. This lift is even more pronounced at the end of each inhalation. This is often referred to as "reverse breathing" in the Internal styles, as well as Daoist based methods of Qi Gong. Admittedly, most teachers of the Internal may not recommend pulling up the lower belly as much as some teachers of Yoga, and the static contraction of the thighs common in Astanga Yoga is absent from the Internal martial arts.
The Internal differs from the pulling in of the Pilates' "powerhouse" in that Pilates taught to hold the lower abdominals up and in as well as contracting the muscles around the waist at all times. The lower abdominal lift in the Internal is a function of the upward flow of intent through the torso and is not as exaggerated as the contraction of the Powerhouse.
The overall energy in true Internal is rising up through the crown of the head, with a commensurate relaxation of the muscles. This results in a lengthening of the back (not an abnormal straightening of the lower back) and a slight lift in the lower abdominals, which becomes more pronounced at the peak of inhalation.
Slumping, pulling the tailbone under and pushing out the lower belly has nothing to do with real Internal martial arts.

That's why I f#%$&$ travel 3000 miles to train with this guy !!!! Best Martial Arts teacher I've ever worked with !!!! (And I've trained with some 'famous' guys)

Not only will he kick my ass, but he's so articulate that he'll explain about my perineum while he's doing it...

Macaco fino

I hold the Guiness World record for the largest perineum.

Tim,

Thanks so much for your informative reply.After I made the post I thought about I guess what some would call pre birth breathing,or what you have described.I was never taught this only have read about it.

It seems to be much more than some mystical technique.It in fact sounds quite useful and practical.

Again thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Is anyone on this board familiar with the teachings of Cai Songfang a reputed Taiji grandmaster.He advocates eliminating the hollows & protruberances by pulling the pelvis & sacrum forward & up while simultaneously slightly pulling in the abdomen for a structurally optimal posture,saying this lengthens the spine by straightening out its curvatures particularly the sacral & lumbar curves thereby filling the mingmen.He says this is done to adjust the centerline internally by changing the location of the perineum relative to the baihui point on the head and the midpoint of the line connecting the bubbling well points of the feet.Any comments on this advice?

Yes, Anonymous of 26Oct, 8:48pm,
My advice is: DON'T FOLLOW THE ADVICE YOU JUST OUTLINED; rather follow Tim's advice: neither a tucker nor a protruder be; and don't you forget, that's your best bet! Face it, IT TAKES EFFORT TO MAINTAIN A TAIL-TUCKING OR A BUTT-PROTRUDING POSTURE, THEREFORE SUCH POSTURES ARE UN-NATURAL (thus WRONG!!).
The goal of standing practice is proper posture. The means is relaxation. If you're standing upright without any undue tension, then your posture is probably great; but if you're standing up exerting effort (i.e.: to tuck your butt), then your posture is without a doubt poor!
I've tried all three "butt positions:" tucked, protruding, & natural (relaxed); and tucking was absolutely the worst (it makes one rather stiff, less mobile, & less able to deliver power; yes, power can be delivered from such a position, but even more power can be delivered from the others, especially from the naturally relaxed posture).
Well, that's my advice: take it or leave it.

>Anonomous 2,

I would have to agree with Mike,just from personal expierence.Tucking under IMO,is a forced act against nature that has caused me much grief,as I have stated in above posts.

But many teach this.From BK Frantzis book Opening The Energy Gates.

"Your tailbaone should be perpidicular to the floor;it should not point backward as it does when you stand normally.The lower back,from the tailbone upto and including the lumbar vertebrae ,must be absoulutely straight.In most people,the spine naturally has an "S" shape,with curves at the bottom,middle and top.In the standing posture discussed here,however ,the lower part of the spine is straightened."

"Your spine should be straightened by gently rolling the hips under,and(2)using the inner back muscles to push the kidneys slightly back.Together these two processes will make the lower part of the spine totally straight."

And as I have stated in above posts, in addition to making the spine "totally straight"one IMO,runs the risk of damaging their intravertabral discs.

Also no real reasons are given for adhering too statements such as the lower spine should be "totally straight."Other than the implication that it is opening an energy gate.I believe it is a bunch of bull at best.At it,s worst it is downwright dangerous.

Lest I forget there is a reason I have been told for keeping the lower spine "totally straight".Because the weight of your upper body will fall directly onto the strong supporting pillars of the legs,without that damned lower back curve getting in the way.

But then again the earth used to be flat.

And this is being taught in the name of health?

Open your energy gate and trash your back.And the slippery ones will then state that you didn,t perform the "technique correctly".

>Tim,

Do you in any of your material that you sell,i.e books or video,s,go into some detail about this subject? I have more than a feeling that I could benefit from your knowledge in this area.

Anonymous #?,

Check out Tim's 'books and videos' link at the
bottom of the (ShenWu.com) page.

Tim covers proper posture in all of his tapes
and books, but the Tru-Balance video (I'm guessing) has the most detailed analysis of posture.

Good luck, Tom
Sum Guye

>That's why I f#%$&$ travel 3000 miles to train with this guy !!!! Best Martial Arts teacher I've ever worked with !!!! (And I've trained with some 'famous' guys)

Not only will he kick my ass, but he's so articulate that he'll explain about my perineum while he's doing it...

Macaco fino <

You travel 3000 miles because your wife beats you every time you ask her to pay attention to your perineum. You know that Tim and Judge Judy will at least listen sympathetically.

I've been taught to just relax the musculature around the lower lumbar spine, and to visualize the lower spine as hanging relaxed and suspended from the mingmen point--definitely NOT to forcibly tuck the lumbosacral curve under.

It's interesting to compare photos of Sun Lutang performing solo postures in his books on xingyiquan or taijiquan with his posture when doing taiji push-hands. The solo pictures seem to show him doing the butt-tucking thing. But actual application in the two-person push-hands form seems to show him in a more natural posture, at times with a forward lean.

Contrast Tim with Luo Dexiu in the applications sections of those Gao bagua tapes. Luo seems to be tucking under whereas Tim maintains more of the natural lumbosacral curve. But straightening the lumbosacral spine doesn't seem to be an explicit part of Luo's instruction.

Anonymous of 10/27, 10:10 a.m.: check out the introductory sections on "body use" in Tim's book "Effortless Combat Throws". His "Tru-Balance Dynamics" tape with its instructional booklet goes into some straightforward exercises about correct spinal alignment. Both are available through Plumflower Press at www.plumflower.com.

Sum Guye-
Still longing for Tom? Your heart went pitter patter at the thought that Tom came back on the board. You scrutinize every post hoping it's Tom. No wonder you are so twisted and have so many personalities. Why don't you and Bob start a I love Tom discussion board?

Prowler,

longing for Tom- no, Although I do enjoying reading Tom's off kilter yet over the top banter.

Pitter Patter... nope, no pitter patter from me-so again, You are Incorrect.
(and who are you trying to kid; only Tom would use a term like "pitter patter" on a martial arts discussion board)

twisted with so many personalities... naw, I blame the media for that one.

me start an I love Tom discussion board?... no,that would be completely dishonest.

Pitter. Patter. Does it really matter?

>I hold the Guiness World record for the largest perineum.

Bob #2<

Hey Bobby:

I understand you strained your perineum during your training romp with the Rump Rangers. Still sore?

Rump Ranger? This is Sum Guye, etc. Wasting disk space that he chastises everybody else for using.He will have to reply and to waste more space. He is like Captain Benjamin Franklin "Hawkeye" Pierce who always needs the last word. Watch.