Weight Lifting and Martial Arts, does it do any good?b

Tim's Discussion Board: Concepts : Weight Lifting and Martial Arts, does it do any good?b
   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 01:33 pm: Edit Post

I was wondering, I was reading the old posts on weight lifting and IMA when I wondered what people were thinking about this several years later.

To guy who said, "I don't want to be able to squat 300-400 lbs..." I say, damn, you're weak. I could 400 lbs after about a month of squats. And I was only 15 years old and 155 lbs. (I'm 16 and 172 lbs now) They aren't full, powerlifter squats where the legs go past parallel on the bottom of the movement. The knees are about 95 to 100 degrees bent and the bottom of my thighs are parallel. My bench press isn't that good but I think its because of all the hundreds of empty air punches a day I used to do. It builds a lot of endurance for empty air punching but it steals your strength and power for punching.

What kind of weightlifting do you guys do and how strong have you gotten?


   By Backarcher on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 10:57 pm: Edit Post

You only have to be strong enough to execute your tactic and complete your technique. That varies every moment of confrontation.

Royce Gracie probably couldn't outbench my little sister, but would most likely make a 300lb powerlifter cry! But that's because of his chosen art. If he was a TKD guy or internal CMArtist, he most likely would not be effective.

Yet, a guy who benched 500lbs and squated 700lbs who studied Tai chi, would be dangerous. He'd be strong and have movement!

It depends on your delivery system. Most successful fighters can't put up big numbers in the weightroom, but they know "how" and "when" to use the strength they have, in coordination with leverage.

Also, speed doesn't require strength, but with speed you gain power.

I'm a former powerlifter and olympic weightlifter. Now, I just do bodyflow, yoga, pilates and clubbell training.

When I'm training for a Judo shiai, I include do a high intensity Olympic weightlifting routine for anaerobic cardio and muscle endurance.

Because of my olympic weightlifting background, I always had an advantage. I knew how to use my body's strength as a whole to accomplish a task. Even when I was new in an art or sport, My strength could overcome someone with more experience. But when I met someone who was strong AND had good technique, I was in trouble.

Most people who feel conditioning and resistance training isn't needed, have never really fought against someone resisting or someone out of their style.

I train for movement now, not for muscle. Having a strong core enhances your movement. I do various bodyflow, yoga and pilates movements to accomplish that.

I also train with a 45lb clubbell.

If I were to train a martial artist, I'd have them focus on olympic lifting or clubbells.

Olympic lifting and clubbells teach teach you to "use your body as a whole", not isolated. Learning to recruit the proper joints and muscles is a skill that creates power and strength. But still...I'm training "movement", for the olympic lifts are complex.

Deadlifts and squats are good core movements also.

Remember, a few more pounds in the bench or squat will not make you a better fighter, but improved movement will.


   By Terrence on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 04:24 am: Edit Post

Mont,

Keep doing the weight training if you like it. Many people may tell you it's not an advantage but most of them have never been bitten by the bug. The only thing that was able to pull me away from weight training was Martial Arts - and after 13 years of MA training I still love to throw the iron around (gym rat forever I guess). The point being, if you love weights and are just getting into MA training, you don't have to give it up. At some point you may need to choose which you want to spend more time on - for me, Martial Arts has been a life enhancing experience and I will always do it. Now married with kids, I'm just happy to get time to myself to do anything.

Take Care and keep doing what you love.

Regards,

T


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 02:15 pm: Edit Post

I'm not looking to add a "few" lbs to my bench press, my upper body is weak in comparison to all my older relatives. I can only bench press around 180 lbs right now. When I was 14 I weight lifted like 12 hours a week and got my bench press up to 225. My dad weight lifted a couple hours a week once for 2 months and he could bench 250 lbs.

My uncle can bench 350.

My Grandfather is in his 70s but he is "way" stronger than me. I guess serving in the Korean war and working for so many years in an iron mill gets you strong.

Backarcher,

I do some "olympic type" lifts some times. I'm also a firm believer in not bulking up as the main focus of training. I train for function and strength (usable strength). I also think that strength without speed is not good. I also train for speed. Technique is good, but add technique, speed and strength and you have the formula for a world-class fighter. Why are the Gracie family not so dominant anymore? People know how to perform and negate their techniques now. The better conditioned athletes are winning because they add technique to strength.

By the way, to make a correction:

I wrote when I do my squats my legs is bent 95-100 degrees. I'm sorry, I added degrees instead of subtracting. My knees are bent 85-80 degrees.


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 02:20 pm: Edit Post

I have a question. Does anyone else add lbs to their crunches for abdominal strength?

For a while I did sits ups and crunches without lbs one day but I stopped doing situps after I did 100 in a row one day and wasn't tired.

I do leg lifts now on a bench to isolate the abdominal muscles. I also do crunches off the end of a bench so my back is arched when I start the movement. This works the abdominals through a much larger range of motion and is much harder.

I did crunches with lbs for a while last year but I stopped after a week when I ended up with a 65 lbs dumbell on my chest. It won't fit behind my head :-) and did like 30 crunches in a row. That much weight is just too heavy for me to have on my chest and breathe correctly.

By the way, I was reading in a book on distance cycling. Lance Armstrong can only benchpress like 130 lbs and he weighs 170 something lbs. :-) and he works out with weights during the winter.


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 04:29 pm: Edit Post

I just visited this link:

http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/pavel.html

It changed the way I think about strength training with weights. I really recommend it.


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 04:31 pm: Edit Post

Sorry, I just read my first post in the topic. I meant to say my knees are bent 90-80 degrees. I added 10 instead of subtracted :-)


   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 07:24 pm: Edit Post

and they said youth is wasted on the young.


   By Backarcher on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 11:42 pm: Edit Post

Adding weight is one way to strenghten your core, but most exercise specialist agree that "core stablization or trunk" training is best. The "sit-up and crunch" generation are behind times and research. You won't see a lot of pro athletes falling in the "sit-up/cruch" crowd.

But do what you enjoy. It's not wasted time, there are just better ways.

I suggest surfing the web for scientific proof of what I've stated.


   By Kenneth Sohl on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 08:13 am: Edit Post

Backarcher, I assume you are familiar with Matt Furey's body-weight routines. What are your thoughts on those?


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 09:39 am: Edit Post

Backarcher,

I am quite familiar with "core stabilization" that usually gets worked when I perform olympic lifts, deadlifts, squats. Also the entire "swiss ball, core training" is mostly just a fad. The same benefits are reaped by stabilizing heavy weights during lifting and such when doing certain martial arts exercises and yoga type stuff (I bet with Matt Furey's stuff too), punching the heavy bag, doing sometimes 1000 kicks in a row in a day and actual fighting too. And yes, I do have a swiss ball :-)

Also, to quote one boxing instructor, "Some people say, I've got great strength in my abbs to take a hit, I do lots of crunches and stuff. I say ok, how much can you crunch? You do know that doing lots of crunches has little effect on how strong the abdominal muscles actually are? I suggest you go do crunches with weights and we'll see how strong your abbs really are."

By the way guys, since I don't have a medicine ball, (the local sports store doesn't sell any near heavy enough for me, 10 lbs doesn't cut it :-)) I sometimes load up the smith machine's barbell with around 100 lbs (I just started so I decided to go easy) and let it rest on my abdominals. I let them sink in then I contract and the weight gets lifted, I do this for around 20 reps on several parts of my abbs. I think it works the same muscles as when people throw medicine balls into your stomach for boxing training.


   By Backarcher on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 10:31 am: Edit Post

Matt Furey's Royal Court and the rest of his BWEs like his ab wheel are a good source of GPP. But after awhile you need to start shooting for SPP. Also, Gotch's program is even better. The rope climbing is just "sick"!

Mont,

It may seem like a fad to those who have not been doing it, but it's really about the popular culture catching up with the scientic athletic culture.

You are right, squats, deadlifts, O-lifts, Medicine and swiss ball, yoga...all of them work your core area. Joseph Pilates, Sandow, Yogis have were doing this decades ago. That's not a fad. Some are just catching up. If you are doing the above, you don't need any extra core work.

Also, rather than crunches(which are not that bad, just not the best)with or without weight are not as efficient as doing "abdominal curls". There is a difference.

The way most people "crunch" is by throwing their torso haphazardly towards their thighs, focusing on numbers(reps) or weight on their chest.

-Make sure you are not grabbing behind your neck, with your elbows forward of your head, which causes neck misalignment.
-Make sure your lower back doesn't come off the floor

Abdominal curl: rest on your back, knees flexed, lower back imprinted on floor, your arms can be extended overhead, but make sure your lower ribs do not come off the floor as you extend your arms or you can place both hands behind your neck, but don't lock your fingers and (at all times) keep your elbows flared out to the sides.

Now, exhale and "slowly" begin to "curl"(not crunch) your spine off the floor, thinking of taking one vertebre at a time off the floor, hold at the top, and now "uncurl" your spine down to the floor(one vertebre at a time). "Slow" is the protocol. The whole time focusing on "bracing" the core.

Doing 20 like this is much more effective than doing 100 or 200 normal crunches.

One mistake people often make is assuming abs are a different type of muscle. To gain muscle you must either use weight or do exercises that only allows 6-12 reps for strength. The abs are just like any other muscle. You don't do 200 reps of benches, why 200 reps of ab work...unless you are working for muscle endurance.


   By Backarcher on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 10:33 am: Edit Post

http://www.gssiweb.com/reflib/refs/311/CORE_STRENGTH_RT.cfm?pid=38&CFID=486118&C FTOKEN=28482977

This is a good link. Not everything they suggest is great, like some of the resistant exercises, but it gives some good background info.


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit Post

Backarcher, be totally assured that I don't "throw" my body towards my thighs to crunch.

The way you describe abdominal curls was the way I though that crunches were supposed to be done. From what I read, curls are where you have your legs bent around 90 degrees and your calves resting on a bench. I guess everyone has a different name to call things when it comes to exercises.

I think I need to clarify the when I said that it was just a fad. Obviously strengthening the core is important. I was calling the entire yoga on a swiss ball total body super exercise program a fad. Next year, something else will be the "one way to get fit".


   By Backarcher on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit Post

You are right! There will be something different presented...hopefully it's sound.

You were taught correctly, but look at others.


   By Kenneth Sohl on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 08:37 pm: Edit Post

Thanks, Backarcher, great info and website.


   By Backarcher on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 03:06 am: Edit Post

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/softball1.gif

This is even a more informative article.


   By Backarcher on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 04:25 am: Edit Post

Correction on the link!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/softball1.htm


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password: