I've met a lot of people trained and untrained in the martial arts. In my observations most people can't fight at all.

It seems that if you're not genetically predisposed to having a fighting spirit then no amount of training can help you anyway.

I look at this way. There are hundreds of breeds of dogs and there are millions of dogs world wide. But only few are made to have that fighting spirit.

You can't turn a poodle into a fighting dog even if you shave of the cotton ball hair.

Most people are poodles or lap dogs who have fantasies of being like a pitbull or a tosa.

I think you're right Niccolo. In sparring I've seen people faster, stronger, more skilled and even all three unable to fight worth a crap. You have to have that little voice in your head that screams "KILL HIM" or something like that to be a good fighter. All the champs have it. Some more than others. This fighting spirit even makes you stronger and faster by allowing you to push yourself harder in training than most people can. It also helps overcome pain.

By the way, my neighbor had a HUGE rottwieler (or however you spell it, I'm still trying to get over how freakin huge it was.) That thing had that look in its eyes that it just wanted to go for your throat and kill you. Only its respect for its master (and a really thick chain, its broken it before) kept it from going after everyone who walked by. And this dog was old and almost deaf too. It died a few years after I first saw it.

Left to their own choices/devices I would agree that some people are going to be more serious and effective in their actual "head banging fighting" (by that I mean real contact fighting). People on this board have mentioned that some people are born with a temperment that draws them "naturally" to contact fighting (or contact sports in general).

And I would guess those kind of people are a fairly small percentage of the general population. For example I do not include myself in their number, my natural "temperment" is to avoid conflict and avoid hard physical contact.

But the idea that "most people can't fight at all" is absurd. Armies have been teaching and motivating large groups of people (most of whom are not of the "fighting temperment") to fight and fight to the death for thousands of years.

Training can trump temperment. Now of course if you have not been drafted into an army and sent off into war (or become part of law enforcement/corrections) then yes, your temperment will determine if you ever try and train real combat skills. And since most people do not have the real "head banging" "combat fighting" temperment then they never do develop real hard core combat skills.

I should mention a fact that is often overlooked in these kind of discussions, and I do not say this disrespectfully, but simply as a fact about societies (and this is equally true for American or Taiwanese society). Most people think that people who do participate in full contact combat training are----••••••• stupid. They think that because you are daily risking injury and damaging your health and for what??

Most people go their entire lives without being in a violent confrontation. And those that are victims of felony assault or robbery; it happens so quick and so violently that one's hard earned combat skills often do not make a difference. This is not my personal view, I am simply pointing out what the average person would say.

The image that the general public has of a full contact fighter is somebody like Tyson; a low class animal whose bell has been rung too often and now he is a pennyless brain dead has-been. Again, I mean no disrespect to Tyson, to western boxing or to boxers in general. I am simply pointing out how it looks to "regular" members of society.

Let me close with the disclamers; I am not anti-boxing, anti-Tyson (well, actually I am), anti-contact training nor am I saying all people who participate in contact fighing turn out like Tyson, nor am I saying it is "••••••• stupid". I am just pointing out how it looks to the majority of society.

Enough socialogy, time for lunch.

take care,
Brian

Monte, Brian makes a good point about the soldiers. I think you should probably differentiate between fighting and competing. Though there is some cross-over, a desire to win and a fear of dying are very different motivations. Niccolo, I agree with you 100%. Only, who the fighters are often isn't very obvious.

We just sit around a watch re-runs of the Andy Griffith show.

It was never the same after Barney left.

The deputy was obviously a master of esoteric self-defense -- stand there rolling your eyes and shaking the body when threatened.

When copying him, your opponent will think that you are having an 'attack' of some kind and leave you alone out of pity. Or Aunt Bea will come along and wack the villain senseless with her wooden stirring spoon.

And then there's Otis drunken style.

I agree that people in armies learn to fight. But how many people make it into the Navy SEAL program? Special forces? Marine Force Reacon?

All men have fire inside. Some have it close to the skin, in others it is buried deeper. It is primal fire that martial arts should teach you how to control. Fighting arts bring out primal fire. But they do not teach you how to control it, making people less than gracious. When one taps primal fire it is like a discovering a new power. And many cannot put it away, and some become bullies. I call it “hunting in the off-season.” We all have will to survive (it is like thinking, speaking and even feeling skills), but it needs be developed.

There are some who simply like to fight. That’s good. And there are some who like to fart at the dinner table. (I believe proper flatulence etiquette requires one to be in a sleeping bag with a significant other you are in a committed relationship with (your dog?), before you can release - like rules of engagement). I guess that’s good too?

In this world of “anything goes as long as it’s not illegal" (legality substituted for ethics) who’s to say how anybody should behave. Hell, marry your pet frog. That reminds me of a good frog joke. Man says to the wife, who discovers them in the kitchen together (man and frog) trying to see if the frog can cook, - Never mind.

But their inability to stop (fighting / farting?) shows a lack of personal development.

Back to fighters. Fighting is powered by spirit, fire, confidence, passion. Women seem closer to their primordial spirit. And they are pound for pound more vicious than men. The ones who know how to release their primal energy at the right time in the right place are talented in the other arena where there are also no rules.

I keep getting off track…. Oh yeah, some people can only bring their fire out under competition, because in the street they cannot sufficiently damage another human. They have not developed the psychological acceptance of the need to maim or worse.

They simply cannot bring themselves to grasp somebody’s ears with their fingers, and sink their thumbs into the eye sockets (using the wall of the nose as a guidance tool) and pluck those puppies out. Cannot bring themselves to do it. Can’t. - I don’t get it.

And others can only bring it out when street fighting. It is the street fighters that are at a disadvantage when competing. Inherently they unleash their primal power (mixed with experience and technique, not to mention a weapon or three) and are not concerned with the possible consequence of their actions. So, in competition, which in many ways is unnatural to street fighting, because the competitors have been to trained to respond to the bell (remember Pavlov?), the street fighters cannot fully connect with the primordial gush.

I think all people can become fighters.

In my opinion, it is more difficult to develop tournament fighters than street fighters or army personnel etc. It is like the previous poster said, “Many cannot justify hurting or attacking someone else for the pleasure of it or to see if they will win or not. Can’t. - I don’t get it

When you have been trained to fight to survive you are more likely to pull the trigger more than once, if you know what I mean.

Monte, that has less to do with fighting and more to do with brains. Specops members have to learn things like specialized electronics, foreign languages, etc. on top of all the other stuff. Also, because of their small unit sizes, they must cross-train(!) in each others' specialties for the eventuality of attrition.

I watched a special on discovery channel on navy SEAL training. 90% of making it past hell week was mental the instructors say. Most people simply aren't mentally tough enough to do it.

This isn't exactly the same as fighting spirit but it does raise some interesting questions mental differences between most people. It all comes down to what is "acceptable" to them. For the people who pass hell week in SEAL training, failure is unacceptable. To the people who refuse to stay down when they get the •••• beat out of them think losing is unacceptable. Someone who gets hit once and feels pain but is relativley uninjured and gives up feels losing and whimping out is "acceptable".People have a lot more mental strength then they think. It all comes down to what is "acceptable" to them.

I agree that most people have some sort of "fighting spirit" but only a handful can draw it out at will and far less can control it properly.

Mike Tyson is a criminal and has always been a criminal way before he began boxing. Throw in Don King and you've got a recipe for self-destructive madness.

Not all people can become fighters. However, all people can fight in some form.

As Meynard pointed out, fighters are born and then polished by the training process -- not made.

However, most people can learn to defend themselves against morons and bullies with the right training; even though that won't put them in the category of professional fighter/martial artist.

There is more to life than fighting, practising fighting and thinking about it endlessly...

Not if a girl shows up in class.