To the original Anonymous,
Of all the material I've published, I go to the greatest length in explaining structural alignment and movement in the "Effortless Combat Throws" book. In the second chapter on Body Use, there is a fairly detailed explanation of alignment and a number of exercises. If you have any specific questions, please e mail me at shenwu1@peoplepc.com

---
Contrast Tim with Luo Dexiu in the applications sections of those Gao bagua tapes. Luo seems to be tucking under whereas Tim maintains more of the natural lumbosacral curve. But straightening the lumbosacral spine doesn't seem to be an explicit part of Luo's instruction.
---

Does this mean that Tim's Teacher (Luo) is wrong and his student (Tim) is knowing it better than his teacher?

regards

Anonymous,
I'm sure that to your question...Does this mean that Tim's Teacher (Luo) is wrong and his student (Tim) is knowing it better than his teacher? Tim would say not at all! However from my experience, having seen Tim exceed a teacher of his. I would say that if anyone could it would be Tim!

Prowler,
Don't assume that because I miss Tom posting on the board that I am in love. I am the father of five children and quite heterosexual, but thanks for your concern!

First off, you really can tell that from a video tape ??? Hmmm.
All through baggy pants. Oh, I know - you can tell this from a video and Tim trained with the man for 5 years in Taiwan and recently just trained with him a couple of months ago. (Hey Tim, all that time - you were wrong dude! I told you you should suck up your butt) You're probably correct though...Gotta love that big Butt tuck. After all, all the internal guys that fight suck up their butt. When they actually fight. Isn't it dogma somewhere? Isn't it written in a poorly translated Tai Chi Classic somewhere? Oh yeah, it's translated by someone who can translate into English but doesn't have any martial arts training. No wait, it's a martial arts guy that doesn't have any Classical Chinese training, just translates verbatum, character by character. You won't want an interpretation from a guy that has done graduate study in Classical Chinese language and literature and is a premier martial artist. No...(Hey isn't that Tim???) Nah, what the F#$% does he know.

When you actually fight, if you ever do ever fight or spar, do you think, "okay, my butt is sucked up and now I can really do some damage." Think about it!

As far as Tim knowing better than Luo -
My personal opinion -
Yes.

No disrespect to Luo, but the inference to never being able to surpass your teacher is ridiculous. Sun Lu Tang must of really sucked compared to his teachers...

Just for the record, Tim's system (Shen Wu) uses classical internal principles but is presented in a neo-classical format.

Macaco fino

To tuck or not to tuck that is the question,most of the people in this camp seem to be non tuckers .Is there any tuckers out there who can extol the virtues of tucking.Come on all you tuckers utilize those martial abilities and defend yourself.

I admitt I have been a tucker for about 17 yrs. I now see the error of my ways. Please forgive me. Mother tucker my back hurts!

I think a clarification needs to be made here. I've never once heard Luo laoshi say that your butt needs to be tucked under 100% of the time. What we do is curve it under slightly in some stances. This curving under allows us to sink our weight a little deeper and stretch the lower back. A very tight area for most people.

If you do our system of bagua think of movement #2 in the warmup set of "opening the three gates". It's a movement that takes the spine from extremely concave to extremely convex. This is the beginnng of the "dragon back" kind of movement. The kind of movement that you'll NEVER have if you don't know how to tuck the pelvis.

Remember, the idea here isn't to run around with your tail tucked in between your legs. Instead you want to have relaxation and flexibilty in the hips, lower back, and thighs so you can curve under and then release.

And this idea of curve under and release didn't just come from some mistranslation of the TaiJi classics. Maybe the idea of 100% tuck under all-the-time did. But I know my other friends who do other styles of bagua do it as well as my friends who do chen style. And they don't think too much of the "classics".

As for "straightening the lumbosacral spine doesn't seem to be an explicit part of Luo's instruction" I would ask: have you trained with the man? If not how do you know?

Finally, I would like to say that all us currently studying from Luo laoshi or one of his students should be grateful to him for so openly teaching what he does. I can tell you that most of the teachers here DON'T do that. Tim, Tucker, and many others wouldn't be where they are today without his teaching.

IMO he might deserve a little more respect than some recent statements on this board would imply.

I've Got A Hunch...
Try this comparison: (1) standing in a proper "Cat Stance" or a proper "San Ti" posture (back naturally relaxed), tuck your butt (like a dog tucking its tail); (2) standing in a proper "Cat Stance" or a proper "San Ti" posture (back naturally relaxed), keeping your butt stationary, lean forward slightly by rounding your lower back (keeping your upper back straight as you tilt forward); NOTE THE DIFFERENCE. This second way of seemingly tucking without tucking is used in Luo's drilling (power) exercise (as well as in drilling application) & when done with proper coordination (taught via the power exercise) it ADDS POWER TO SUCH A PUNCH! Hopefully this exercise will be fully explained in Tim's book (currently in progress) on power exercises.
One more example: when you "absorb" a punch to the belly, do you tuck your butt? No; rather you curve your lower back, causing your upper back to tilt forward (perfect for a drilling counter). Try it, you'll like it (unless you're Mikey; Mikey hates everything; hey, wait, Mikey likes it).

Dave C,

Appreciate your thoughts above.I have noticed since doing Yoga that this use of the actions described by you can be very theraputic,if done judiciously.Although Yoga uses a slightly different approach.More static flexion and extension.

There is an Iranian therapist,his name escapes me,who developed an exercise very much along the lines of the action you were articulating.

It is done lying face down with the chest and hip regions slightly elevated above the ground by pillows stacked on top of one another.Using the concave and convex actions of the pelvis and waist,in this case by allowing the stomack region to sag and then lift up,his theory states that the disc will become re-centralized by the vacumm effect of tucking slightly and then releasing.

I have tried it and it seens to work ,although with backs everthing always has an air of the nebulous,it is hard to speak in terms of absoulutes,when it comes to backs and injuries,IMO.

I would based on my injury and expierence go very easy on the tucking under component,using very small movements,instead of movements that have the potential to further tear the protective outer layers of the disc,allowing the jelly like inner material to bulge ,or worse yet rupture.A fine line.


The discs relying on the compression and release of supporting and connecting body parts generate and supply blood,could in theory I suppose be nourshided by these actions.These actions in nourshing the discs with blood,will keep them pliable and at less risk of rupturing or bulging due to "drying" and stiffening due to lack of water and proper blood supply.

I suppose that which nourishes also has the capability to damage in this case.

Thanks to the above guys for information and clarification. I'd like to add a point as well, adding on to Dave's description of developing a curve-and-release motion.

One of the ways in which the tuck is used in Mr. Luo's teaching is to generate a springing power in movement. In xingyi, for example, one can tuck immediately before the forward banbu ("half step" ) & strike in pichuan, paochuan, etc. The forward motion then has a greater force and distance, as the propulsion is coming not only from the legs. (I think of a catapult being tied down, ready to fire.) The strength of your butt, the biggest muscle, is also more fully capitalized on this way.

I do think, however, that it might be smart to first practice for a while the convex-to-concave exercise described by Dave above and other power exercises taught by Tim or your own teacher. This can increase the strength and flexibility of the back before it's asked to perform more strenuous duties.

So I would agree, based on classtime instructions, that the tuck has specific purposes for generating different kinds of power or movement and is not to be held statically as an all-purpose, all-the-time posture.

"The forward motion then has a greater force and distance, as the propulsion is coming not only from the legs. (I think of a catapult being tied down, ready to fire.) The strength of your butt, the biggest muscle, is also more fully capitalized on this way."

Sorry, but I disagree. You name any explosive movement generated by body (baseball pitcher throwing a ball, Olympic weightlifting, great boxer throwing a punch, sprinter, etc.) and none of them tuck their butt before their respective exploding movement.

"I do think, however, that it might be smart to first practice for a while the convex-to-concave exercise described by Dave above and other power exercises taught by Tim or your own teacher. This can increase the strength and flexibility of the back before it's asked to perform more strenuous duties."

No offense, but this statement implies that the "butt tuck" is an advanced type of body power movement, or that their really is something beneficial that is truly advanced by the butt tuck(and everyone wants to think of themselves as advanced) - it isn't. You're only contributing to the myth or you really don't understand what you're doing to generate true whole body power.

Please don't misinterprete my comments as negative towards Mr. Luo.

Macaco fino

Macaco fino,

I thought that Beth,s comments were fairly accurate on a number of levels,particularilly the all the time,all purpose comment,held statically.

There are moments that this action is probably of a critical nature IMO.After all isn,t the storing and releasing of energy a key component that amplyfies and enhances any movement that requires power?Storage and release of power enhanced and developed by the concave and convex actions of the body?

The concave and convex moving in and out of each other,opposite undulations resulting in a common force,all of these actions are critical to the overall enhancement of power,are they not?

If one uses the example of world class athletes to make a point,fine.But why not just use the example of a top level karate man instead.

Because many involved in these arts,believe there is a level of refinement that other athletes and martial arts styles do not practice, teach or attain.

And I would submit that the high class teaching of Kai/He is one ot these teachings.Internal martial arts IMO,strives to teach something far beyond athletic performance or that which is innate or comes naturally.

And in looking at world class athletes such as a top flight pro pitcher,they indeed do apply many components in a delivery that make use of the concept of store/discharge/release fascillated by the physical opening and closing of body parts.One would only have to look as far as a Nolan Ryan to see that at a certain juncture in his delivery his hips and pelvis are rotated under.

But as Beth points out above,it is only a momentary action that gives birth to the next.It is not a whole philosophy and system of movement.

I think that one needs to acknowledge the dangers of this method,but at the same time not throw the baby out with the bath water.

If I ever find a baby in MY bath water... out it goes.

Thanks, Anonymous. Dear Macaco Fino,

I didn't even know there was a "myth" on this topic until this conversation, so I'm certainly not motivated by a close-minded desire to contribute to it. I really do get more distance out of a banbu the way I described, so it works for me without causing back pain--that's all.

If I am off base theoretically or historically, sorry--so be it. I have not pursued a detailed explanation from Mr. Luo, so I was sharing my own thoughts on our practice; if there is an error of understanding, it is mine alone. If you disagree with my views, of course you can express it without my thinking that you are disrespecting my teacher. (But if you do directly disrespect my teacher, I will come find you...)

Also, for clarification--my only implication in mentioning practice of convex/concave exercises or power exercises was "safety first." Condition your back to avoid injury. I don't think that's so offensive or arrogant. That advice applies, IMO, to all strenuous use of the back--for instance, the twisting actions of the xiantian--not only to that horrible, beastly tucking.

BTW, my xingyi example meant to focus on the banbu stepping movement with the propulsion based in the rear end, so comparing it to boxing punches or baseball pitches is a little off the mark, in my opinion. I didn't intend to have it taken that I tuck my butt to generate whole body power for all kinds of movements (punches, interceptions, the whole lot). If you over-generalize, I think you miss a lot of good stuff. I am interested in the sprinter comparison, however. Any insight from the track and field stars among you? How do top runners come off the mark?

One more thing I should have mentioned the first time, and then I'll shut up.

I'm not talking about a weird contortion of the lower vertebra while the rest of the body is in a normal position. In the gathering/contracting before the banbu step that I used as my example, the whole lower body is involved, from the waist to the knees. It's like sitting down in a chair--the whole motion provides the tuck, rather than vice versa.

Thanks for the clarification Beth. It makes more sense to me. Sorry if I came across to aggressive.

Maybe I should disrespect Mr. Luo. This way you can come after me. But I must warn you, I will only accept a challenge match with you if we both adhere to how the ancient Greeks dressed themselves when they fought match of Pankration. (Naked and lathered up with olive oil. It wouldn't be boring... )

To Anonymous that addressed me on "Monday, October 30, 2000 - 09:58 am"
Clearly with statements like:

"Internal martial arts IMO,strives to teach something far beyond athletic performance or that which is innate or comes naturally."

"it is only a momentary action that gives birth to the next."

"The concave and convex moving in and out of each other,opposite undulations resulting in a common force,all of these actions are critical to the overall enhancement of power,are they not?"

WHAT?????

All I say is, who actually talks or thinks like this when it comes to martial arts???

Dude, you read one to many copies of the Tai Chi Journal...

Hey, but let's not talk physics or levers when we speak about fighting. Let's only speak in terms of pre-natal or post-natal chi...

Wwwwwweeeeeeeee......

Macaco fino

Macaco fino,

Sorry.I will order an Easy Rider subscription.

How about to suck in and then spit out.

In truth words are so ridiculously cumbersome,in communicating these concepts.In a format such as this what else is there?

Have you been taught the Kai and He in movement?

Thanks Beth S.,
If only my original (Nishiyama -- sp?) Shotokan Karate instruction had been as clear (I may have stayed with it). In my karate instruction we were instructed to stand with our butts tucked in -- in a static stance/posture; then we'd be instructed to thrust our hips forward to strike or kick with power. Now I found this extremely difficult, well, impossible since my hips were already thrust forward due to the butt tuck. But now, following Tim's advice of standing naturally & then following your (Luo's) advice of thrusting the hips forward with a step-&-sitting-butt-tuck I find that when I finish my step that my stepping foot then acts like a brake to my hips' forward momentum & that my butt untucks as my upper torso continues forward! This is GREAT! I do believe that this is the "whipping" or "wave-like" motion that I've been seeking (& Tim's been encouraging me to develop)!
Now I've just gotta figure out how to get this motion without stepping (if possible) & when going in different directions (to each side & to the rear). Our drifting off the subject (yoga) turned out to be a treasure for me. Thanks again.

Macaco Fino,
Sorry if I came on a little strong about disrespect. It's just that statements like "Tim has surpassed Luo" could be viewed as disrepectful especially from a Chinese cultural standpoint. Ask Tim to explain! Speaking of...

Tim,
I went back and looked at the Taiji classics in Chinese since you said the butt tuck idea was a mistranslation. I found two refences to this:

1. wei(3) lu(2) shou (1) zhu(4)

This is the passage that is used to support the tuck. Weilu together means the tailbone (or "tailgate" but not like on your pickup!) and shou means to collect or gather. Zhu usually means "to live" but I don't have a clue about its use here. I can only assume this passage is translated as "tuck the tailbone" because of the use of shou (collect or gather). However, IMO this IS a little vague.

2. wei (3) lu(2) shen(2) guan (4) ding(3)

We have the same weilu (tailbone) followed curiously by shen (spirit) and then guan (pass through or follow in a straight line) and finally ding (as a noun: peak or top, as a verb:prop up or push up). Maybe I'm wrong but this passage could be translated as "the spirit of the tailbone is in a straight line (with) and supports (the spine)."

Tim, is this what you were talking about? The use of guan here seems to imply a "straight line" not a tuck. Am I reading that right?

Macaco Fino,

"Opposite undulations resulting in a common force"

"WHAT?"

"All I say is who talks or thinks like this when it comes to martial arts"

I think I know where you are coming from.You sound like a fighter(I,m just guessing)so I understand your pragmatic point of view.Especially since so many"internalists" talk the talk without walking the walk.However some of your comments seem to be of a derisve nature towards people who are "trying" to understand the entire process.

Fighting is a skill that requires rapid force and power develpoment.Force is strength and power is speed and strenght together.To apply force over the longest distance in the shortest and most rapid manner results in the greatest power.

Opposite undulations,the dragon body of Pa Qua,Chen stlye chan ssu,all of these techniques that result in displacement and segmentation of body parts,allow for the development of force over the greatest possible distance,which combined with speed over that distance results in POWER.

Of course a martial artist doesn,t "think" about this while fighting or performing,hopefully the training ingrains the spontaneous response.An understanding of the process IMO is useful especially for teachers.There is so much " folklore" in Internal martial arts that it is difficult to sort out fact from fiction.

And yes while some descriptions sound esoteric and flowery,we all have our verbal cues to ellict a desired response.It seems to me that many of these "CUES" have been taken either to literally,or been romanticized.A cue is not necessarily reality,however.

I must admit that some of these cues and definitions do sound flowery and esoteric,and on the surface may seem to have very little to do with fighting,but I must say I enjoy them immensely.

The dry pragmatic macho martial art posturing does very little in terms of inspiration for me personally.There is too much of that out here in the heartland, NON CULTURE USA.

And frankly while there are some very courageous and talented martial artist,the truth is the really gifted athletes and fighters are not doing martial arts.

They are doing professional boxing,pro and college football,basketball and wrestling.The most talented and gifted are pursuing fame and fortune,not attending little known martial art tournaments.

Think about the state of BJJ or full contact events, if THE VERY BEST AND GIFTED 6 foot 7,340 lb. ATHLETES, were to begin to train in earnest in these full contact no holds barred competetions.We all know that answer.

So in deriding "internal stylist" as a non combative sort,remember it is all relative.

Please do not take this as being disrespectful to you personally.I have immense respect for those that train and seek to achieve their full potential.If you are one of those then you know how I feel.I personally while appreciating the virtues of combat also recognize and appreciate the "art" that follows.