or do you just start going ape •••• and waving your fists around?

I go all sloth with a lot of arm waiving.

When two meet on a branch they will fight, using their teeth and powerful claws until one retreats.

So my answer is yes, when I fight I look like a sloth.

I thought you just laid there and smelled like ••••?

I thought that was going to be our little secret?

Enforcer, perhaps phrasing it better would be: "when you fight, do you actually utilize the principles of your style?" Looks can be deceiving, especially in MAs.

Right Kenneth. I have seen a number of references about 'old masters' whose techniques had the appearance of getting sloppy in old age but whose efficiency had actually increased. Kenichi Sawai was one.

Watch a real fight whether live or on video, there's no technique only relevant experience (or lack of it) and mind-set. That's it --except for luck that day (or lack of it) and fitness levels (or lack of it).

Anyone who I have ever seen demonstrate formal martial skills that looked like they might actually be useful in a fight was fast, powerful, spontaneous in his adaptation to what you did to him and appeared somewhat "sloppy" (for lack of a better term). This sloppiness is the natural evolution of someone who has been crisp and detailed to the point where his body understands where the mind can lead. ...

I recommend reading the excellent translation of the Five Character Secret at the end of Tim's translation of Sun Lu-tang's book on taiji. As old classics go, this is one of the best to my mind and perhaps I like it because it has a harder edge and doesn't mention being sensitive and rooted at all costs as is often suggesed by modern taiji people.

Michael are you saying you do not fight in any prepared manner that you throw arms out in any way not caring how the bone structure lines up if there is a natural whip in the arm etc. etc. that you do not generate power from a certain part of the body. that you do not consider distabalising you opponents centre of balence or finding a way past their flailing arms. this is what in essence you have said above. I think you should clarify I am sure you mean that at a high level slight variations of techniques can be used to generate different energies or the type of energy you put into a technique can change how it effects an opponent, also that it becomes more natural and seems effortless this leads untrained people to belive it is sloppy.

How I fight depends on how angry I am. And who I'm fighting (someone who can break bones with their blows I fight more carefully than someone who can't bruise my skin). But it mostly comes down to how angry I am. If I'm really mad I tend to throw my opponent to the ground or against a wall and beat them sensless with my fists like an ape. Against more skilled opponents I tend to be a bit more careful and they usually have enough sense not to make me mad, waiting and probing for a few seconds to gague their range and speed before I whoop their butt. My philisophy is style is meaningless but there are principles that must be applied to be effective.

And I think Michael is right. The best fighters don't look like picture perfect robots of technique. They tend to look a little sloppy sometimes but with speed and power. Everyone is different and applies their skill the way it works for them. And I also think being rooted at all costs can be foolish. Mobility is also a necessary part of fighting to avoid blows and set up angles of attack. When deliving the blow you need to have a firm foundation or your blows will lack power (see a younger Ali, he couldn't really hurt people with his punches cause he just danced around and arm punched) and when getting hit having a good foundation can help you absorb the blow without being knocked down but rootedness isn't the end all in a fight.

Watch a boxing or kickboxing match. Some guy who does forms all day long has much better form but can't hit nearly as hard or fast and would get his ass kicked. Because the techniques aren't really a part of him. One you master the principles through training you can use them however you like within reason. And I don't think Michael means flailing around like an idiot. He means that the techniques aren't going to be picture perfect because the fighter is so good that he makes adjustments during the technique's execution to get past the opponent's defense making them appear a little sloppy but they are still hitting hard and fast. The techniques aren't stiff and robotic but fluid and smooth.

Anyway, I'm off to pound my chest like an ape and eat raw meat while fashioning a necklace out of the teeth of some chi-huggers I killed with my bare hands.

Participating in martial arts forums often seems to mean that those who read your posts will interpret the words to suit their mood at the time of reading rather than bothering to read the actual text.

I stand by what I wrote previously on this thread. Despite Qui chuji's creative interpretation, I was trying to reduce a hypothetical unarmed fight to as few variables as possible.

Of course, it's also true that I don't always express myself as good as I tink I does when I does a post ;-}

Some of us dinosaurs remember many 'karate guys' who lost all technique when it was for real. this was for several reasons:

1. Because they went to a class for an hour twice a week they thought they were trained or even skilled.

2. They thought they were learning to fight when they were actually just practicing a sport.

3. The movements they practiced were so stylized as to become actually unnatural, thus the movements were not usefull under stress unless one had a very high level of training.

what about tai chi. it looks in training totally different than hard styles or kickboxing type styles. I mean all the double handed pun ches, single whips, etc. Can they fight like that without reverting to kixkboxing?

the top san shou fighters in the world... Cung Le, Marvin Perry are all products of a modern system of fighting...

I dunno where your head is at. But the last time I watched them fight... I didnt see a single tai chi sail or swinging punches...

I read your words again for a direct quote 'watch a real fight whether live or on video, there's no technique only relevent expirience.....' there is technique it is only that you do not see it. If I have 20 street fights I might gleen some positive points and become more used to fighting, taking a hit etc. If I was studing whatever martial art and had 20 street fights I would apply what I know of body mechanics, anatomy etc that is learned in martial arts to my fighting and this would make me a better fighter than if I was to go in swinging without thinking.

Let me rewrite the offending phrase "watch a real fight, whether live or on video, there's no obvious technique to the untrained observor only the presence or abscence of relevant experience ... ".

It is also true that an experienced fighter may well be able to see principles of combat that an untrained observor might miss in such a struggle.

I'm also talking about a street fight not a sport contest between martial athletes or the controlled contact of in-class two-person training.

the only techniques that work are muay thai and boxing and grappling.

And the only monkeys that do well in a fight are the ones with the blue butts!

hallo guys
guys any movement should be internalized as sifu tim say to be appied naturally weather look good or do not (do not miss your goal )
search for muscle memmory idea in wing tsun
thanks

Muscle memory is not uniquely WT!
Jake

"the only techniques that work are muay thai and boxing and grappling."

ask tim to spar with you using the internal arts. After that, tell me if they work or not.

examples of guys who actually use their styles in full contact:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=TTkzpHptmEg&feature=related

that was pure crap...horrible example.

this is a better example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-S37qLR6k

I used to think that forms training and sparring in a Chinese style should look alike. After training with Tim and reading a bit I realized it was a mistake. In the west and even China few people realize the difference. However these concepts are old. in the Ming Dinasty General Qi Jiquan quoted "without obvious postures or techniques, you will be effective with one move; if you do make the mistake of posturing and posing, you will be ineffective with ten moves". in the sixteen century Tang Shunzhi wrote "the reason for postures in the martial arts is to facilite transformations...forms contain fixed postures, but in actual practice there are no fixed postures. When applied they become fluid, but still maintain their structural caracteristics."

Cheers

thats more like it.

William that was a pretty good quote, thanks for that.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=aBEoslpEN1o&feature=related

what about this?

That clip reminded me of a question I've had for years. Why are all Chinese people hard of hearing? Is it the tiny ear canals? The spoons and burning cones they use for cleaning? I understand thats why their music is so piercing and also why the ate all the dogs (to stop the constant howling faces the dogs were making).

Is it genetic? did it have anything to do with potatoes? Maybe part of the mystic of NINJAS was that they were from a superior genetic strain and could hear. Everyone else was blown away that they knew when someone was walking up behind them, like magic.

Bob#2