Does James W Demiles book describe an "internal" method.It seems to me that all the prerequisites for an internal strike are their, firstly he describes relaxation followed by some form of visualization to lead the strike.He then uses gravity to generate the force (dropping) the body then forms a "single unit" (is this the same as whole bdy strength) i realise he does not got to any form of movement or sensitivity training, but in essence is this internal?

The book by James D. is based on Bruce Lee's teaching, and Bruce Lee's teachings are based on Wing Chun(in re to the one inch punch).

Wing Chun is an internal art and follows the same punching theory as Hsing I and alot of Tai Chi.

So in essence... it is an internal style strike.

bullshirt!

Sleepy, I gotta agree with Bob#2, if the prerequisite for a so-called "internal" strike is using gravity and some kind of whole body strength, then that makes Hung Gar and Choy Lat Fut "internal" as well.

I was just reading about yipman taking 1 hr to do the first 3rd of siu nim tao.So slowly he appeared not to be moving, and thought it similar to the moli exercises in yiquan(they stop short of moving until they extend it outwards and it becomes shili).It just seemed that practicing either exercises would yield similar results.

Would you consider Hsing I punching internal or external? What John Mitchell asked sounds as if he understood it to be an internal strike... besides define an internal strike? Is it one that penetrates into the body or is it a strike delivered by an interanl artist...

Wing Chuns straight punch/ Bruce Lee's one inch punch are based on Wing Chun principles... and Hsing I's straight punch(Beng Chuan)is very very close to Wing Chun theory and principles.

Actually Hung Gar and Choy Lay Futs ultimate goal is the "internal" realm... just not often talked about or reached.

I forgot to mention on part that John has already stated... Yip Man performed Siu Nim Tao so slow it was almost a stand still... this is to build inner strength and focus as in tai chi.

Hey BoB2 did you get bullshirt from that shirt I used to ware? The one inch punch is silly, anyone can do it in a few minuts once exsplained (as long as they understand how to use their body.). Actually that statment might be aplicable to alot of stuff.

I've seen it done two ways, De Mile in his book also describes Bruce Lee as doing it differently ,one method (push punch) is how Bruce tended to do it for demonstrations, the clip at the tournament being an example, and i agree, this is easy to do, De Miles book describes a second method, and the principles described sound very similar to internal styles.(that is what i meant by internal strike).
Do you practice wingchun sleepydragon? and is this how things are explained to you?

John,
Wing Chun is my primary style and I have been practicing it for the better part of 12 years. If I understand your question correctly... yes, Wing Chun punches like an internal stike. Many Wing Chun people are able to knock someone back from the neutral stance called yee jee kim joh ma( it is like wu ji sort of)with the same effect of the pushing punch as Bruce Lee used. This is why Yip Man was reported to have so much power... Siu Nim Tao is done in Yee jee kim joh ma stance. However, the pushing punch is not really a push(I am sure that made no sense). If you watch Bruce he is not literally pushing... he is driving through. This is why I said it is sort of like Hsing I's beng chuan... Hsing I's beng chuan is not "pushing" but yet it "drives" into the person and knocks them backwards, as compared to alot of external styles that hit hard, but it is more surface damage oriented(busted lip etc.)

Before I keep rambling... I'll wait and see if I answered your question.

sleepydragon,
I see what you mean with beng chuan, i was referring to de miles book, he describes both ways.The clip of bruce lee at the tournament is almost like dempsey falling step, which Tim describes as similar to beng chuan.I was wondering about the other method in de miles book where he drops rather that steps the punch in this case would be backed up by structure/frame rather than moving body weight.

This sounds like an argument in which the word "pushing" has been deemed "ordinary", and there is a connotation to the fact that internal is not "ordinary" but in fact something magical. Very similar to the argument that kickboxers aren't martial artists (because they are JUST kickboxing), but practitioners of Xing-Yi are real martial artists because they do "internal".

No, i don't mean that, in de miles book he draws the distinction between push and punch.If anything what i mean't by starting this thread was that if de miles book does describe what is an "internal" strike ( refering to body mechanics ) then there is no real mystery.It just struck me when i was reading it that the steps de miles book describes seemed similar to what is described as " internal " mechanics.

Martial arts is martial arts the whole concept of styles, whether internal or external, gives practitioners only a beginning layer or depth of understanding.
Many stylists have been able to transcend to a advanced depth of comprehension but were trapped by the rules of thier art i.e. Dempsey or the stylistic terms and heirarchy of another i.e. Yip Man.

What is the definition of "internal"? Sleepy uses it to refer to a snapping strike that sends force through a target as opposed to a heavy smashing strike. Yet others use it to describe some kind of "whole body power" (the erroneous assumption to be made here is that TKD and such only extend their arms when striking). Some think it is supernatural chi-force to be harnessed with the mind. This last has been ocassionally modified into meaning willpower to better fit in with pop-culture self-help trends. One website defines "internal" arts as having been originated in China, and "external" to describe shaolin arts which are presumably of Indian origin!

The more knowledgeable posters on this site seem to generally agree that "internal/external" delineations simply didn't exist back when these arts were in actual use for their original purpose, just as the mythical "fast draw" of the American old west is a sheer fabrication brought about by dime novelists' miscomprehension of the word "quick" when applied to gunfighters.

Kenneth,s post, as well as, many on this site brings up an essential question. What is martial arts?

Kenneth,
As usual you are well spoken, but to say internal/external did not exist back then is incorrect... Read the classic by Yang Chen Fu. He clearly states the difference between internal/external arts and the reasons behind his thoughts.

In re to chi... I personally buy the mind over matter/concentration aspect.

Sleepy, when I say "back then", I'm refering to a time when firearms had yet to be king of the battlefield in Asia, over a hundred years ago. What many misconstrue as "traditional" was formalized in the early part of the 20th century, and is fairly new, relatively speaking.

Also, I'd like to point out an important distinction that is seldom addressed: the differences between military and civil fighting traditions. Hsing Yi uses powerful center-of-mass strikes to break bones while jujitsu uses throws and locks for the same purpose: to attack the structure of someone wearing body armor. Many southern chinese arts on the other hand appear geared for urban "hit-and-run" type fighting. A close analogy would be the 17th century rapier of Europe, much more popular than the saber for the subtle demands of duels in the street, yet too delicate for the battlefield compared to the same. Perhaps Iron Bastard's question "what is martial arts?" would be better phrased as "what are the various martial arts?"

No not "various" this requires to much definition with system languages, and hierarchies.

Actually, I meant by purpose, as in military combat, sport competition, health, meditative, and self-defense. If you think about it, each of these will take different approaches though some, such as sport and self-defense, will be more alike than the others in training if not intent. As for military combat, I suspect most MAs are no longer practical for the modern world.