Classic CMA training versus sparring early in training

Tim's Discussion Board: Concepts : Classic CMA training versus sparring early in training
   By mozart reina on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 02:23 am: Edit Post

hi tim,

i've noticed that you have shen wu class about everyday and xingyi/bagua class only on the weekends. i've also read that sparring is introduced early on in shen wu class.
does this mean that you believe that a student doesn't have to reach a certain proficiency in the forms or other traditional practices (pushing hands) before he learns how to spar? i used to do traditional taekwondo and we didn't spar until we reached blue belt level (almost halfway to black), and was told it was because we had to develop strong basics in the form and kicking drills. do you agree with this? from what i've read, the old taiji guys wouldn't introduce free fighting till you reached a very high level in forms and da lu practice.
i also have a question on conditioning. did the old guys like sun lu tang practice conditioning, isometrics, push ups, etc.? i always thought that these excercises impeded one's ability in the "internal" (i know you dislike the term :-) ) arts because you became stiffer and you'd rely more on force.


   By Tim on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 05:55 pm: Edit Post

Mozart,
Students learn about alignment and basic movement skills from the first day of class. They also start some non-cooperative sparring drills within the first week or two of training. Some students (with a little background) start sparring in a limited format the first or second class.

You could practice forms for a million years and you will never know if you are doing them with any degree of proficiency until you try to use the skills in sparring. The very idea of forms is to develop the attributes useful to fighting. How can you test the degree of development obtained from forms training? By fighting (or sparring realistically). Otherwise, you are only dancing.

Think about how you acquired any other physical/athletic skill. How did you learn to ride a bike? Did you practice the "bike riding form" without a bike for several years to perfect your "form" before you ever sat on a bike, or did your dad give you some pointers and then let you try and ride? You fall down, you learn from the error, and you try again. In a short amount of time, you can ride. You cannot correct your performance until you actually try and perform. Without realistic practice (which includes making mistakes) you will have nothing to base your training on.

The idea that you need to master "forms" before you can begin to actually practice a specific sport or skill would be considered ridiculous in any other physical endeavor (except "martial arts"). Imagine people who really need to know how to fight, soldiers for example. If you used the "perfect forms first" model of training, boot camp would last 30 years instead of three months.

If I hear a teacher forbidding live practice (realistic, non-cooperative practice and contact sparring) until the student has trained for months or years, my first thought is the teacher doesn't know how to fight himself, or he doesn't know how to teach others how to fight, or, he is simply marketing (dribbling out information as slow as possible to keep students on the hook).

All fighters practice conditioning. For example, stance keeping (Zhan Zhuang) IS isometrics. Tensing your muscles inappropriately makes you stiffer, not exercising.


   By mozart reina on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 11:34 pm: Edit Post

so what is the balance between forms, sparring, and two man drills? should training be evenly distributed between the three or should there be more emphasis on one of the three?


   By Shane on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 01:11 am: Edit Post

Tim,

That was the coolest post I've ever read.

You rock.
Shane


   By Enforcer (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 01:46 am: Edit Post

I have a question to tim, have you ever pulled off fajing strikes in competition or against resisting opponents? Or how bout tai chi waist method or shaking power?


   By Enforcer (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 01:47 am: Edit Post

by the way, even in most muay thai schools students don't spar until about 3 months into training until they gain some balance and proficiency in techniques so they don't get hurt or rely on basic instincts.


   By Tim on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 12:11 pm: Edit Post

Mozart,
It depends on how many hours a day you have to train. Our theory is that you learn forms and solo drills in the academy, but you practice them at home. There is no need to pay a teacher to watch you practice forms once you know them. So when you come to class, most of the time is spent on drilling or sparring with a partner.

My classes are broken down basically into one third of the time doing forms or conditioning, one third on technique practice and drills with a partner and one third sparring.

Thanks Shane, you rock too.

Enforcer,
How much time have you spent in Muay Thai schools?


   By Michael Andre Babin on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 01:52 pm: Edit Post

Tim;
I agree with Shane that your first post in this thread is excellent; best short discussion of the topic that I have ever heard or read.

The Hoi Poloi;
The problem with forms training is that it takes up too much valuable class time to learn and most students never practise the ones that they do learn regularly or well enough to really benefit from them. And most, as Tim pointed out, will have put the cart before the horse in terms of never having really learned to defend themselves in the first place.


   By harold (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 02:33 pm: Edit Post

Tim,


first, what you are saying makes perfect sense for me. Just one practical question:
how do you make sure that inexperienced students don't aquire bad habits during sparring practice? Relaxing the body can take a long time, and sparring might put a lot of pressure, both physically and mentally on students. Do you stop students which are just "brawling" and use brute force instead of trying to work on their skills?
In other sports, there are lots of things which "work" but tend to hinder progress to higher levels in the end.


   By Enforcer (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 04:26 pm: Edit Post

Tim,

Well I have the basics down so now I spar anytime I go to a muay thai or any school but at first alot of people start relying on brawling and throwing haymakers or flinch alot or even drop their head.


   By Tim on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 03:58 am: Edit Post

Harold,
Alot depends on the individual student, but, in general, sparring is introduced to beginners in rather specific and limited formats. I agree that having a new student glove up and spar full contact with few rules usually isn't the best training method (although you can learn alot about yourself in such situations).

If you reduce the variables to a limited area of focus, students will be able to concentrate on developing specific skills in a non-cooperative format, without feeling undue pressure. Making mistakes is a natural part of the learning process. The teachers job is to provide feedback, and present corrective methods of practice afterward (most often in a less stressful, more structured environment) so the student can work to correct flaws and improve performance. The more proficient a student becomes, the freer the practice can be.

It is impossible to correct a student that is never given the opportunity to make mistakes.


   By mozart on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 04:31 am: Edit Post

hey thanks tim, that last post cleared everything up for me.


   By Robert on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 08:57 pm: Edit Post

"It is impossible to correct a student that is never given the opportunity to make mistakes".

That's one of the best quotes I've read in a long, long time.


   By Enforcer (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 09:51 pm: Edit Post

check out this thread:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=done;action=display;num=1107267926;start=0


   By Charlie Dubya (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 12:02 pm: Edit Post

In my opinion I think a couple months is a more proper time length to being sparring. I've been doing hsing-i a little over 3 months now. We do not spar in class yet, and probably wont for a couple more months. The advanced class spars but there isn't alot in the begginers class.

We do on the other hand do ALOT of 2 man practice drills such as sticky hands (I guess this is san so? zhan zao?) and 7 star. We also spend alot of time hitting the pads. Often with the instructor giving us personal instruction after some of hits to correct improper stance/forms/posture.

Its alot different getting kicked while holding the pad when our instructor kicks (I get pushed back 2-3 steps) and when fellow begginers kick.

I think a firm understanding of the basics should be required before starting sparring. I think a lot of bad habits can be learned in sparring situations...especially early on.

I know you can't use your forms in sparing, but if you really practice them at full speed, and full power, and go over them in class I think you can come out far ahead when the time comes to spar because you are starting out with better technique and form to begin with.

I know in a military situation you would want to pump out as many fighters in as short a time as possible, but I think in this day and age its ok to go a little slower with the sparring and get students rooted in the fundamentals before moving into sparring.

2 man excercises to start off will help condition the body slowly anyway and teach you sensitivty so that you can control yourself in sparring more easily and reduce the risk of hurting your classmate.

While I know sparring brings you ego in check...I think it is inappropriate for the true begginer.

Just my 2 cents. I am still a total newb at hsing-i. I do occaisonally spar with another school when I visit my friends, and I found myself doing things I really shouldn't and just getting to overly excited. But it did put my ego in check, and I did enjoy it, but I still want to know more fundamentals before I spar on a regular occaison.


   By Rich on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 01:31 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
The way you describe your class time is exactly they way my teacher runs his school... and when I was assistant instructor( I have been gone for about a year) I ran it the same way.

The school actually lost some students due to lack of forms practice. To many feel they need to practice their forms in class only... I said this is the time to apply the forms, and you should practice at home.

I would start class with a light stretch, run through the forms with a watchful eye, and correct anything that was noticed, then it was all hands and drills.

I always told the students... it is my job to make sure I do not impose false illusions onto you. I am not saying I am a "great teacher or fighter", but I was honest in what I taught.

I am glad to hear you train the same way.


   By Tim on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 04:44 pm: Edit Post

Rich,
Sounds good.

Unfortunately, alot of people want false illusions.


   By Kenneth Sohl on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 07:54 am: Edit Post

That answers a nagging question I'd always had about forms training. Since the idea is to internalize the form so the movements become instinctive, achieving mastery of the form would NOT be a good time to discover techniques that didn't work or applications that are wrong.


   By stan (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 01:07 pm: Edit Post

kenneth,

it seems most instructors do not teach usage so if one is not aware, then there is no way one can get the essence of the postures. another thing is that shuaijiao and qi'na elements figure prominently within postuer usage depending on your teacher's strong points and movement ability.


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