About 'duration' of the force. Used to be said that when a plow horse kicks you, you land on the other side of the fence. When a race horse kicks you, your chest caves in. Why?

The plow horse may be 'stronger' however has a bigger foot so the impact is spread out over a larger area. The blow is also slower, spread out over a longer time. The race horse had a smaller foot, faster strike. So, some of the energy of the plow horse kick moved you while a higher percentage of the energy from the race horse damaged you.

The principles of the 'race horse' strike are discussed in one of Tims' books and other places, one critical factor being whip like point of contact to make the time of energy transfer very brief.

I have seen a number of unrelated sources indicating that with the whip/race horse method of 'internal' strike, little energy is wasted in moving/pushing the bag because of the shorter duration of physical contact.

Even Funakoshi made a vailed reference to this effect while relating that he was with one of Okinawas masters when they were informed that another master had been attacked. Funakoshis' host finally interrupted saying, "yah, yah, yah, and they were all laying face down, unconscious". "How did you know?" "I know his method of punching, any other masters punching would have put them (the attackers) on their backs, but his will put them face down".

In these cases it seems how the force is applied may be more important than how it is generated. I wonder if instead of a bag, a diferent media was used for a target, such as swiss alpine mountain goats, the perferred live target for highly regulated ammunition testing. This 'target' may give diferent results than the bag.

thanks, tim. sounds like common sense.

just did a test run, and surmised that when the bag bounces off its chains, i'm probably adding upward force which lifts the bag. i was unaware i was occasionally doing that. just discovered if i hit it deliberately with "fair lady" (up), two of the four chain-hooks come undone.

mark, thanks for your comments too. did you ever see that clip that was circulating round the net with the guy getting a perfect side kick from the horse he was branding? the guy flew out of the frame. quite amusing looking--not amusing for him, i'm sure.

duration of contact does definitely make a difference in how the bag seems to behave.

tim, are there ways you have your guys specifically train for short power? (i don't want to go back to exploding chickens and watermelons, here...)

(btw: just to be clear, my original question wasn't about chi; it was more about how an object might react to different deliveries of force.)

best, and thanks...

Internal,

Try to keep up. We are off chickens & onto goats now. Chickens are yesterday's news (like Bob #2's love life).

Time to go analyze those Mountain Dew commercials & brush up on your "Return Goat to Mountain" applications.

thanks for the tip, DP.

By the way, the swiss alpine mountain goat business is no joke. Rather expensive (and extensive) tests have been conducted shooting these goats. Want to make the bag swing real good, just push it. Needs much less energy than hitting it and it moves real good. Back to how the force is applied. May depend too on what medium you're striking (what it is you are hitting).

thanks, mark.

btw: i wasn't doubting you at all about the military use of goats.

i agree with you, too about the ease of pushing a bag. *if* that's what one wants to do. (which i think is part of your point too.)

my real question (which probably got diluted with issues of my bag jumping off it's moorings) had i think to do really with the question of "duration" which you raised in your other post.

my old bag is pretty "cement-like" at this point. and doesn't "fold" too well. and i'm not powerful enough to break it open. but it does behave differently, of course with a hit, or a push, or something along that continuum.

i think you are right too, that bags and people (or god forbid goats) behave somewhat differently, when struck (though people can "fold").

so, anyway, with your good points in mind, it occurred to me to ask tim specifically if he trains short power in any particular way.
it's harder for me to tell by my bag's response how successful i'm being with that...

thanks again for your posts, and best wishes...

Internalenthusiast,
We practice "short power" on each other (with gear or pads). You can also practice 'shocking' a heavybag, the heavier the better.

thanks, tim.

Tim,
Are you saying short power is/can be issued irrespective of alignment?

Michael

Michael,
No, I don't recall ever saying that.

Tim,
You are right. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Please correct me if I am wrong.
When issuing short power a heavy bag depending on it's stiffness may fold i.e. not swing as if pushed. Yes?

"There are only three factors that will influence how a bag moves when it is hit: the direction of the force, the intensity of the force and the duration of the force.

The puncher's posture, alignment, or imagined qi power will make absolutely no difference. Why? because the bag in an inanimate object"

If the object were human, how would it differ?

This is not an attempt to bust your horns, I am just trying understand this a bit better.

does a bag feel pain? or fear the next blow?

Can you hit a bag in the groin or in the solor plexes, knocking it's air away, causing it nervous and circulatory systems to react till the systems can right themselves?

It's like this- if you kick an old woman in the stomach she will yelp, fold and try to turn away from you. If you kick a bag shapped like an old woman- hanging from a chain- regardless of what you stuff it with- it can not react the same way.

How is it you can type and spell but you don't understand the difference between a heavy bag and a person?

The puncher's posture, alignment and intent however determine the direction of the force, the intensity of the force and the duration of the force applied.

The two main factors that determine how a wave travels through a body are its density and elasticity (this is equally important for both transfering and receiving). In an inanimate object these factors are fixed during construction, so if you know what they are, you can predict fairly reliably the result.

Human beings on the other hand have the ability to change, interpret and adapt, thereby altering responses, in this case by changing density (breathing for example changes volume) and elasticity (training proprioceptors).

Good point Chris, particulary on density and elasticity.

hi, chris,

thanks for your points. indeed, half the equation rests with the "giver" and half with the "receiver" as a "collision" is a mutual affair.

not being versed in physics (?) terms, i'd assume elasticity might relate to yielding, and whole-body connectedness.
i.e., the amount of "give" that is deliberately/technically achievable while retaining body integrity. (my bag doesn't know how to yield. plus of course, it doesn't know how to roll, or spiral around anything. all that stuff that can lessen impact.)

could you elaborate on your thoughts about breathing, density, and the practicalities vis a vis the topic at hand? breathing does change volume, but what exactly is your underlying thought, in achievable terms?

thanks...

ps: bob#2, i always enjoy how you illustrate your points. do you find taping the old woman with duct tape inhibits the "folding", or do you get a good "fold" allowing follow-ups, even if she's taped?

Now WHY duct tape on old woman before kicking her in the stomach? What purpose would that serve?

What do you have against old women and capitolizing proper nouns and beginings of sentences, creepo? (Unless, ofcourse, you are missing your pinkies- in which case- I can appriciate the effort you make to type what you can given your limitations).

now, bob#2,

fess up. you once gave an elaborate explanation of exactly why you duct-taped seniors in santa barbara; it contributed to their training. it dealt with their ability to yield, and how by inhibiting their extremities, you taught them the "torso methods." that's why i asked about the old lady's ability to "fold".

also, i have my pinkies and i'm not a "stubbie."

darn it, bob, i have a memory like an elephant, and i expected more of you...

Duct-taped, yes, But I didn't say I kicked them directly in the stomach, DID I? Besides, your previous question sounded to me as if you were suggesting duct-taping the old woman head-to-toe like one would a Salmon for shipment.

I too have a certain elephant-like attribute which keeps the senioritas happy.

bob#2, i see where the confusion arose; now i get it. i'd assumed the kicking incident happened in class. glad you're keeping the senoritas (old and young) happy. best...

Internalenthusiast,
Right, if your bag is comparatively softer, a short burst of force would most likely cause the bag to fold around the point of impact rather than swing back as if pushed over a longer period of time.