What if we reversed traditional CMA training? By this, I mean what if we taught people to fight from day one in the manner commonly seen in a boxing or Muay Thai gym? Teach a basic stance or two, how to attack, how to move, lots of bag work and cardio. Get these people to spar, put them in amateur NHB, train them so that they know how to fight at a basic level.

Then, after they can fight, give them the traditional training to enhance what they have. Would this give them an edge? I think it would in that they will see the point to a particular training method and advance in it better. They would know why they are doing everything and have the ability to keep it practical as the focus would be on enhancing skills that already exist.

An example. If you teach someone Hsing Yi. Teach them the basics of the 5 elements as strikes. Work them on the bag. Show basic footwork, (inch stepping, 7 star stepping) Teach them a modified San Ti that works in fighting. Do a lot of bag work and sparring, maybe let them fight a little NHB. Maybe have them hold San Ti as well.

In a year or two, after they’ve fought for a while, Show them the classic 5 elements. “This is how you make your strikes harder. Teach them An Shen Pao. Here is how to dominate your opponent better. Teach them the animal forms. Here are some variations on what you do.

If someone is actually grounded in the practical aspects of a system, wouldn’t they be more apt to benefit from the classical training more than they do now? Is it possible that the problem with CMA is that we have been learning and teaching ass-backwards for years?

Isn't that what Tim is doing now?

It depends on the student. But yep, that's
pretty much what Tim is doing now.

WaterDragon, I haven't bothered to sign-up for the Kungfu online discussion board, but you'd make
a big impression if you let those blokes know that
they wouldn't trust a swiming coach who claims it
would take years before the student would be able to swim--- the same goes for IMA instructors.

A good teacher (like Tim) can teach a serious student how to 'use' Tai Ji, Bagua etc. in a very short period of time.

I know that doesn't really address your question-
but I felt like throwing it out there.

Good idea Water Dragon. Teach them how to fight first then improve their skills. I like it. With a little fight experience they will have a point of reference for understanding more advanced principles, fight strategies and drills. You will definitely cut down on all the petty talk about fighting and swirling their chi and see your students actually trying to apply their internal training in a realistic way. They will develop a feeling for how new material will work in a real fight right away and see the value in some of those strange internal sensitivity drills.

Take a newcomer for example. Push / sticky hands, circle walking, etc. wont really mean anything right away for him. He can't truly understand the value of such training. Now take a guy who has some realistic fight experience and show him the same drills. He will see them in a much different light, value and apply the training immediately, and progress much faster. Teachers like Wang Xiangzhai, Dong Haichuan, etc. had unique training methods for their time that drew students who were already established fighters. I think the early history of these styles is an example of just such a theory.

I have shown basic sticky hands to Thai-boxers and they loved it...and could use it with their neck wrestling and entries for elbow strikes.

I have a sneaky suspicion that that was the way things used to be in many arts. Tim could say more.

Sum Guye - Love the swimming analogy - you're a riot!

I heard Tim say it before
(and possibly you during a Tai Ji class)
I can't take credit for it.

I was going to use "badminton teacher" to make it my own... but it didn't sound as cool.

Xing Yi Quan was taught to soldiers for battlefield hand to hand combat. Recruits had to be trained and ready in weeks, not decades. Sun Lu Tang learned Cheng Ting Hua's entire system of Ba Gua Zhang and began accepting challenge fights (with top fighters) for his teacher after two years of training.

"Teachers" that dick their students around for years while never really teaching them how to fight either don't really know how to use their arts in the first place or are unscrupulous. Students of the IMA, with some persistent hard training should be able to begin to apply what they are learning in realistic sparring situations within a couple of months after beginning training.

Your a f*ckin radical Cartmell. My Uncle Bruno took me down to the West End Boxing gym when I was a little punk. I got my frea*in' head beat in for a little while but after a short time, Carmine Garbonza told me start to mix it up with Fatho Johnson one night. It didn't take that long to learn how to hold my stickin hands in front of my mush. Anyway, I beat Fatho's stickin' lights in. It was only then Carmine started to teach me the freakin' gentlemanly art of boxing.

Is it the same thing?

Your right. Most of those a**holes that teach are just scre*ing their students OR they have no f*ckin' clue on how to really fight.

"Remember, there's only one Betty, BIG BALLED BETTY!"

Walter Dragon,

I think your on to something.A whole cornucopia of good info here that is relative to this discussion.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/vol12/table.htm

I have just talked to one of the people who was doing I Chuan in Beijing. All I can say... he described some brutal training. They would smack each other worse then your ghetto boxing gym.
Tim, do you know of their training routine in Beijing I Chuan circles? This guy was telling me they would constantly engage in full contact sparring, realy without regard for safety, because of some training where they train their intent to be extremely agressive and fearless. Of what he showed me the fighting strategy looked like peeka boo boxing style, going to the side but always attacking forward. Comments?

I've seen some of the Yi Quan practitioners in Beijing pushing hands, but not sparring. I've heard stories about some hard core contact sparring in the early days of Yi Quan, so it's not hard to believe some may still train like that.

"Fisrt you teach them how to fight...then you teach them martial arts".

I recently stayed 2 weeks at Cui Ruibin's Yiquan school and never witnessed any brutal training or special training of the mind to foster agressivity. However, during the sparring matches participants go full-out to down their opponent ( after all Yiquan is a martial art ... ). Nobody is obliged to fight without any protection and most of the fighters wore head, body and shin protection. Clinching and throwing is allowed - the use of knee and elbow techniques is not. As most of these men can take a punch/kick to the body they either take or slip the punch/kick and try to force their way forward to down their opponent as fast as possible.

Theo,

What are your thoughts on the body conditioning
that the Yiquan zhanzhuang provides? I've been
doing zhanzhuang (somewhat inconsistently, I'm
afraid) for a while and I definitely feel my body is tougher, more elastic, but I don't do any of the more external conditioning methods, muscle conditioning, taking blows, using jow, etc.

Anyway, I'd just like to hear your thoughts, and anyone elses on the subject of qigong as conditioning for taking blows. I'm sure you need to get to the point where you start hitting each other with gradually increasing intensity in order to really take serious damage, but what do I know...

Thanks,
David

David,
It cannot be questioned that zhan zhuang provides the ability to withstand punches and kicks to the body although I believe it has absolutely nothing to do with qigong. I've tested the ability of Cui and some of his senior students by punching them repeatedly in the plexus or kicking them in the stomach - it is just like you hit a large football... Students at Cui's camp daily spend a minimum of 140 minutes doing zhan zhuang ( 70 minutes during a morning and afternoon session ). Some of them also do an evening session. One of Cui's senior students practices zhan zhuang 6 hours a day - each morning I saw him standing for 2.5 hours non-stop. Cui also advised us to do a daily 2 hour session of zhan zhuang ( jianshen zhuang ) and when queried about the way he trained with his master Yao Zongxun, he replied that he did jiji zhuang daily for 3 hours ( 1.5 hour each/side ). The elastic capability of the body mainly comes from deep diaphragmatic breathing - breathing however should take place effortlessy ( "breathing like while eating" ).

Theo,

Thank you for the detailed answer, complete with
your observations at the camp.

Just one more little question, so there doesn't
seem to be a limit on how long one can stand at
one time? Master Cui advised 2 hours all at once?

Thank you,

David

David,
Even master Cui pointed out that practicing zhan zhuang daily for 6 hours was somehow exceptional. From discussions I had with other students I think a session should last anywhere between 50 and 110 minutes if you know how to do it right. Most people think that zhan zhuang is just about standing motionless, it is not. You have to adhere continually to a few elementary principles ( straighten the neck, relax the shoulders, feel a paper balloon or some wood drifting on water, etc ... ) to get benefit out of it, otherwise it will just destroy your body when you try to force things. We all suffered when doing zhan zhuang and I sometimes had the feeling that my arms fell of my body but I persisted and my body condition improved. Cui's students told me that it took them between 3 and 12 months before the pain disappeared.
And yes, master Cui advised 1 daily session of 2 hours non-stop. If you practice pushing hands with his students you'll understand why...

Theo,

Thanks again. I've found out recently how important one's intent is in standing as well as the postural requirements. It can make the difference between an energy consuming excercise and an energy building excercise.

It's definitely a kind of suffering and humbling of oneself (shutting the mind/ego up for a while, letting the body do it's thing), but worth it as you know.


David

just a comment.

i visited a ba gua place nearby, and the insructor asked me if i had any previous training,
reason being that it was required in order to participate. lol, so i said "judo" and he snickered at me. PROUD JUDOKA! momentarily...

Robert:
My name is Jamie, I was wondering where do you go to Judo and Tai Chi ?
I too live in San Diego and I have been looking for a good judo and/or push hands class.
Do you know of any?
and also what Bagua place did you go to? just wondering

JAMIE

I agree with fighting first and learning all the "keys to the system" later on. However, some basic theories would have to be taught... because a student may form enough bad habits and may not break them, or take years to re learn.
But I just had this discussion with someone and we both agreed, that fighting instead of forms should be taught right away.

This is my brain storm:
1. One month(3 nights a week) physical conditioning to include basic stances, situp, push ups etc.

2. One month target training and teaching the basic hand strikes, front kick etc.

3. Up to three months of the above... every training class.

4. After one year a student will know if he is interested in the art and is going to stay and then train the classic postures and animals etc.

I was taught in an environment where you were just thrown in the mix. My first night of Wing Chun I was learning Chum Kiu(second form) and I thought... what the heak is this, what happened to the first form! Long story short... I spent 12(ish) years with the same teacher because of the hands on and just learn attitude.