Guest,

Interesting post. You say that a practitioner of Chinese martial arts that learns about Chinese medicine will become a far more dangerous fighter.

Do you think that if a Western boxer became a M.D. he would be a better figher as well? (I wonder how much harder Jack Dempsy would have hit after 4 years of med school?)

I've met quite a few practitioners of TCM that also practiced CMA, none seemed to be particularly deadly as a matter of course.

Robert,

I can't answer the question on whether or not I believe chi exists until you give me an actual definition of chi. If chi is real, why do you have to "visualize" it? Blood is real, it circulates whether I visualize it moving or not. I understand using visualizations to help your practice, I'm just not clear on what you are calling chi.

Tim,

"Do you think that if a Western boxer became a M.D. he would be a better figher as well?"

Well that was the reasoning for my comment on not learning human anatomy. Western medicine and Eastern Medicine. Two totally different systems. A western M.D. ain't gunna make a damn bit of difference.

We would also need to clarify the term "boxer". I have to state my belief that there is a definite seperation between sport boxing with gloves on and a martial artist forced to defend himself with the intent to severly injure or kill with techniques completely illegal and pretty damn brutal. There are various points on the body that if hit with the right technique, power, and accuracy will kill. But if you don't train with these in mind, if you dont have the intent to go for these points, and you don't have teh desire to kill or injure, then I think your actual ability to carry through with it is slim to none. This isn't to say Jack Dempsey couldn't wail on your damn head untill it was a bloody pulp though. Same ends different means. But could he interupt the heart beat with a knuckle to the armpit or a kick to the perineum? Would he first think to destroy the knee joint, or gouge and eye out? Would he know you could cause someone torturous pain by boxing their ears? I think He'd just go straight for the beat you to a bloody pulp technique.

And your second point, oh I couldn't agree with you more. I too have met many TCM docs that have studied xing yi/bagua/tai chi. Your right! They aren't powerhouses in their own right, but was martial arts what they focused on or healing? I assume it was the latter. My perspective is first and foremost Martial Arts, and secondly chinese medicine. I could never hope to be as good a healer as they, and unless they put as much time and effort into martial arts probably won't reach the levels I hope to reach some day...a long way off.

Also there seems to be a certain mentality on this board that we are all going to be forced into situations where we have to fight UFC champions or Gangs of Street fighters. I think this revolves around the way you teach and your curriculum. You teach some hardcore and serious individuals and I respect that. If I come across some monster like a UFC champion that wants to kick my ass or a gang of street thugs? My ass is running the other way.

I train with the intent to obliterate my oponent. But I'm not looking for oponents and I hope to god I never have to actually fight someone (it would only be in self defense). We do spar in class and freeplay, but theres always someone better than me. It just makes me work harder to better my skills.

As for the more esoteric and I guess what most would call supernatural/mystical...or bullshit (and everyone is entitled to their opinion, I respect that) Well I will leave that up to each individual to decide how they feel on the subject. Its definately something you have to experience and can not really be expressed in words especialyl as low in skill (no skill probably hah!) as somelike like myself.

""You say that a practitioner of Chinese martial arts that learns about Chinese medicine will become a far more dangerous fighter."

Do you think that if a Western boxer became a M.D. he would be a better figher as well?""

Only when fighting westerners.

Guest,

Thanks for the reply. How does the student know, in a real confrontation, if he can disrupt his opponent's hearbeat with a knuckle to the armpit or if he could really gouge out the eye of a resisting opponent, these sound like techniques that cannot be practiced in a realistic format (as opposed to really beating someone down with boxing gloves on).

In all seriousness, I find it hard to have faith in techniques that are too injurious or deadly to practice no matter how deadly they are in theory. The intent to obliterate the opponent and the practical skills necessary to obliterate the opponent are two different things. How are these things actually trained?

I would ask how does anyone know if they can do anything to disrupt an opponent. One thing I have learned is that you just can't underestimate anyone. I have sparred guys half my size that were solid as rock and took me down with ease, and men 2x my size that I have taken down and vice versa. I just prefer to train these techniques with intent. It certainly doesn't mean I will be able to pull them off. But I have also learned that things just kind of happen when fighting and since I started XY with no previous fighting or martial arts experience that more and more I am unconciously widening my range of abilities when sparring or freeplaying. Anyway blah blah blah I'm just blathering now.

As for an eye gouge? well I don't really consider that an entry technique, and it would have to be a pretty dire situation for me to ever consider it. But its basically just drilling fist which we practice constantly. You could pop the eye with a knuckle, or drill with your fingers. We have quite a few ways of training this. As for the armpit. It would take someone very powerful to interupt the heart and I don't know to many people that could it, and the ones that can have all been studying dedicatedly for 15+ years. What I do know though is that getting a nuckle in the armpit is excruciatingly painful (personal experience heh) and far more incapacitating than any punch to the face unless you can get a solid strike to the nose, chin, or jaw and knock someone out or cause their eyes to start watering.

I would have to disagree that any of the techniques I have listed are hard to train. Maybe more like uncomfortable to train. These aren't exactly the type of skills you want to give out to just anyone. And while I still train the basic punches and kicks far more because they ARE most important, these other tecniques are what draw me to my art.

Tim and Guest are each correct from their own perspectives. On the other hand, I side with Tim in the idea that conditioning, effective training and the will to fight are always more important than knowing the most vulnerable parts of the body from a Chinese Medicine perspective.

I have met many Chinese martial arts experts who talk a great deal about qi and about point-striking and most are more than a little delusional about how deadly their knowledge makes them against someone who has some fighting skill.

hey everyone,

well, you got me there tim, i cant tell you what chi is, and i cant tell you or convince you that it exists. but i assume that you are familiar with certain forms and exercises such as holding particular stances for prolonged periods of time, and focusing on breathing deeply and circulating/sinking the chi (or blood or oxygen or whatever IT is), and you know what these exercises produce into a fighters arsenal, one of them is tru balance, a concept that you teach, and along with that skill comes many others that can be learned simply by standing in one place for a while, or walking in a circle, some say its because the chi is cultivated, others may say something else, but the results are CONCRETE, it does produce skill(how you fight is up to you). there is also, circle walking, and training the body to relax and contract at the whim of the mind. etc, in my eyes the body is being placed under better control of the user. which allows the practitioner to do things that the average human cannot, i.e, stay in cold temperatures, go without food, self healing, etc. im sure you have seen things like this, have you?

actually, i think that if anyone has anything to say about chi, it would be you tim. i cannot tell you what chi is, i can only tell you that i can feel certain forces, mostly during zhan zhuang, and i just presume that this is chi, well whatever it is, it has really increased my knowledge and understanding by at least double(whatever that is). maybe you can tell ME something?

thanks tim, it is an honor to speak with you and also your students hopefully someday i can journey down really share some stuff! looking forward to it!. rob.

Michael,

I don't know how correct I am on anything really. Just voicing my opinion. Tim's words weigh heavily with me and do unsettle my own beliefs. And I totally agree with you about people having too much faith in certain striking points. I hope I don't come across as some snooty newb...just a newb. I don't profess to be anywhere near the skill level that I talk about. Not even close.

But I have been manhandled by a few teachers who when they put their hands on me, and hit me a little bit. I knew, really knew, that these were people who COULD kill me in an instant if they wanted to. I know..blah blah blah... But it is something to experience. I think Tim is probably one one of these men. With all the people that are attracted to him for one reason or another (don't take THAT the wrong way!) and come to learn from him, I have a certain intuition, but I have never met him.

Anyway I want training that has more depth than punch kick grab stomp ect ect. I want something that I can work on till I am old and gray and thats what I have found. I don't feel like our training is weak though. It may not be the same caliber as Tim's school and we have such a small group that want to learn xy, but I'm still in class 4x a week, at home practicing on my own, eating drinking sleeping xy. Thats all I can hope for.

But I think if I train the next 15-20 years with these TCM principles in my head...something may come of it....geez i sure hope so

"I think that if anyone has anything to say about chi, it would be you Tim."

I think tim's knowledge on chi and energy far exceed ours. But hes got the right idea keeping it to himself. These aren't things easily understood by others, and more often than not are blow way out of proportion and completely mis-used by others. I really think it takes a certain type of person (Especially here in North America heh)to come to a more full or "true" understanding of these chinese arts.

I see people in these xy and other arts who can learn the movements, perform them very well outwardly, and even after a time perform them well inwardly. But even once you develop and are able to use your entire body as a single unit you hit a wall. If you want these arts to be something you can work on the rest of your life you have to give in and try to start understanding some of the more esoteric side of your art.

But this is all assumption. And you know that saying about making an "ass" out of "u" and "me". So I even talk my own words with a grain of salt.

"Using images (visualization) to coordinate the intent with the movement is great, why do you need to call it qi?"

very interesting comment,
i guess for the sake of identification, also, something to focus on, and something that helps my mind to recongnize the relation between visualization, coordination, intent and movement.
not to mention all that other stuff.


much respect, rob.

"I think tim's knowledge on chi and energy far exceed ours."

"Only the real messiah would say he's not the messiah!" - Monty Python "Life of Brian"

Hey sissy boy - Tim doesn't know •••• about chi.

Although, I have worked with him and have felt some incredible energy that just doesn't seem normal for a skinny kid that grew up in southern california. I asked him about it and all he said was it was good body mechanics with excellent technique and thousands of hours of refined practice - but I thought this was a bulls*it answer. He's hiding something...

i think that it is not necessarily the p.h.d of the doctor that would make him a more efficient fighter, im guessing it would be his knowledge and understanding of how the body works, and where he could hit you to cause the most or least damage. also, you dont have to be a doctor to understand pain, and most of these pain techniques have probably all been battle tested and experienced by the practitioner, application of leverage and force etc is essential. although i do believe its true that they wont always work, then again, what will... thats what cross training is for isnt it?

"I asked him about it and all he said was it was good body mechanics with excellent technique and thousands of hours of refined practice - but I thought this was a bulls*it answer. He's hiding something..."

He is. Theres a mental aspect behind it. And that is something that can't really be talked about or discussed. But like you said yourself you felt an energy that shouldn't be comming from someone short and skinny. Its not comming his physical being I can assure you that but thats about all I can assure you of.

well one thing that can be learned from this is...

identifying something that you have no clue of, has its ups and downs.

hahah very true.

Big Baldy, both you, Tim and Guest do all have right. Qi is not some kind of mental thinking power. It comes only from knowledge and practice of body mechanics. You do not even need to have heard about qi, and do not even need to believe in it, and you can use it anyway!

My teacher has an old, retired woman in class. He taught us some body mechanics, and boy, what punches that old woman throwed! My teacher had good protection by holding a 50 cm thick "thing" (well, mits, or what it is called? The thing you usually practice kicks and punches on) in front of him. But on every punch she throwed, he stumbled backwards several steps and then after a short while asked her to quit.
And this does not prove that my teacher is week. His punches I could only say is, well, a little similar to a horse kicking. And he do not know anything about qi, only body mechanics. And we never use tension when we punch. They are always very relaxed.

But when an old lady do something like that, how could you explain it? Well, you can always answer - "she used qi!"

So this is an example of an answer to the original question. Yeah, when an old lady uses qi, she really can kick (or at least punch) some ass!

Guest -
Point of clarification: Tim is not short. I am short. To me, Tim is very tall. He is skinny. I am not skinny. to me, Tim is skinny.

Tell'em Tim - I'm built like a tree trunk...

D. Borg -
By speaking logically on this board, you'll get classified as kind of kooky. But, Tim is a kook too and that will put you in good company.

What I'm getting out of your post is that Tim hits like an old lady...

Robert -
I like your posts. I don't necessarily agree with everything but at least you express yourself well.

Bob #2 -
Well, you're my hero...

Okay ladies let's always remember...
"There's only one Betty, BIG BAD BETTY!!!"

yea your right. I shouldn't have said short. Like I said i've never met him, was just going off videos I have seen of him with some big guys.

and the wind beneath your wings.

I think you meant the hot air of the gaseous wind that flows fourth from my nether region.