Tim, both you and other internal styles people that I respect have characterized internal strikes as unifying the power of the body to deliver a strike rather than using just hip-torque to generate the strike. The distinction is easy to understand in regards to a straight punch (the old karate horse-to-bow hip torquing reverse punch as opposed to xingyi's unified body Beng) but less clear to me when it comes to hooking strikes.

It seems to me that if the whole body is turning as a unit and the striking limb is integrated into that unit then this is internal also--but how is that different from an external hooking punch? In the Taiji style that I practice, there are what we call "crescent punches" that produce a heck of a whallop by turning the whole body as a unit with the arm just attached and transfering the power of the whole body turning--but is this any different from a boxing hook? Are hooking punches just innately easier to do in an "internal" way due to the mechanics?

Whatcha think?

I think hook punches are delivered in basically the same fashion in boxing and the IMA, in that there is always torque in the hips.

IMAs also have a method of using a wave-like momentum to generate force, with the striking arm whipping into the target. Although the hips are torqued here as well, the mechanics are different than conventional boxing hooks.

I think I understand what you mean--either the arm can be firmly connected to the trunk (but not stiffly) so that you are hitting with whole-body power, or you can start the wave with a torque of the hips and let the arm whip out.

Is one better?

Kevin,

Exactly. I don't think one is better than the other, the situation dictates the appropriate method.

In Yiquan Heng Chuan is practiced like the Boxing Hook Punch more than any other art I've seen, the whole body turns in a unified fashion, and the foot work is required for the correct turning, however the Hook can be delivered with reasonable power from close range, weirdly my own left hook Yiquan style is stronger than my right (I'm right handed) when hitting the bag and is more fluid, this might indicate I've internalised the punch more as relying on external jing, I find I can generate a fast non telegraphed left hook, and it can be delivered machine gun like quite easily (muliple left hooks one after the other using the recoil effect) I only withdraw a little, when I throw my hook I also imagine I am holding a belt between both fists so for hitting with a left hook I use a pulling body mechanics with the right, the harder I pull with the right the stronger it pulls the left in for the hook.

Kind Regards

Jay

Also you can tryit on a bag holding a belt between both hands and turn body, notice the effect as it hits the bag hard as the belt is pulling your left fist as you turn body, experiment by trying to pull hard on the belt with the other hand to hit the bag hard, then you can tryit without the belt but still working on same effect, keep switching between the 2 holding a belt and not holding a belt, and eventually you get a good power hook.

Well thats my own way I've trained my hook on an internal basis, the hips move with the shoulders and so on.

Cheers

Thanks Jason, interesting drill.

Tim
How do you do this wawe - like movement?

Do tou tense your muscles in an specific order or do you start with pushing off from the ground and then tense the leg muscles. The leg - muscles makes the waist turn, the waist transfer the movement into the shoulder, arm and so on out to the fist?

Is that the wawe you`re talking about?


And the fist - Do you tense the fist on the moment of impact or is the hand "relaxed"?


Best regards
Tobias

Tobias,

The best way that I have found to produce the wave (rather than the wawe )is to follow the Taiji classics "the power is rooted in the feet, created in the legs, directed by the waist, and delivered through the hands. Basically think of an arm holding a whip. Your legs are the arm (producing the power), your waist is the hand holding the handle of the whip, and your trunk and arms are the whip--loose but not flaccid. The power should "crack" your hand into the target.

Tim,

Thanks for the responses--also, I realized that Xingyi strikes have both a wave and a whole-body driving simultaneously (because of stepping through as well as the spinal wave), so I played with combining these also with a hook on the bag. I basically tried starting the wave but keeping the waist turning and internally connecting the strike to the body at the moment of impact. Tough coordination and possibly impractical, but it seemed to rock the bag.

Easy description but hard to do as follows. Imagine that the elbow of your leading hand, your head and waist are being held from behind by some kind of really tacky glue. Imagine in cartoon style trying to pull away from the glue pushing from the rear leg. It stretches and stretches until suddenly it snaps. Also envisage that your front foot is empty, so that when the glue finally gives, as you push/fall forward the foot acts like a brake and the whole of your upper body jacknifes forward with the leading arm heading towards the target. Just after the front heel hits the ground imagine that you are suddenly pulling a truck toward you with a tow rope round your upper back, so that you immediately start to staighten up. You can practice at first making quite a large movement and gradually the body movement becomes smaller until it is barely noticable. In time you will have a very useful short jab developed entirely from so called internal power.

"In time you will have a very useful short jab developed entirely from so called internal power."

so CIMA has the monopoly on pushing/pulling movements?

I think Kevin elaborated some usable points about body coordination, to which I would like to add a few notes about the rotation of the torso;

Rotation can not be contolled or powerful without a highly devoloped torso musculature, especially that of the external obliques (the largest muscle in the 'abdominals'). This means not only strength, but flexibility, speed, stability and motor control. The example of a chain (weak-link idea) is valuable in that you could say that your abds will only transmit the force of the legs that they are capable of controlling. Thusly, your hook is only as strong as your ability to control torso rotation.

Secondly, when rotating the torso, please be advised that there is only about 13 degrees of rotation in the combined sacral and lumbar vertebrae. This means that rotation is actually occurring much higher in the spine (mostly thoracic). I've seen a lot of martial artists and exercisers try to stretch or strengthen this ROM when the body really wasn't designed for it.

The best advice i can give about hooks? Learn great core rotation exercises like the chop/lift and practice them diligently. The obliques are in the unique position of being both dynamic and stabilizing muscles, and for best results i would train them as both. Without strength training, the core musculature may become more precise in it's control (ba gua forms come to mind), but will never increase the force loads it is capable of transmitting.
The chop/lift patterns can be trained in a stabilizer fashion, or as a power exercise by simply changing a few of the details.

Actually there is no rotation in this punch. Hip shoulder or otherwise.

yeah... this forum is about Hooks though

you described a jab, and it's pushing and pulling motions.

it was certainly interesting, but i was sort of addressing Kevin (the originator) and Tobias and Tim, and their discussion of hook punches.

My quoting your post was to remark on your statement that what you described was 'internal' power. Not to say that it wasn't, but can you imagine that you change a few of the details and I thought that you were talking about rowing a boat?
Why call it internal? It's just moving. Push and pull.

I suppose in a way it could be thought of as similar to rowing a boat. Of course when you row the energy of each stroke is exerted over a lengthier period of time. So then try this. Imagine your rowing boat and paddles are sat in a frozen lake. You figure if you pull the oars hard enough you'll break the ice and get the boat moving. So you sit in the boat pull the oars with every ounce of strength you have, driving your feet into the bottom of the boat and then suddenly the oars snap... That's the kind of power delivery I'm trying to get across. It is often seen as internal because the muscles are working against internal resistance instead of against an external resistance like in the boat example, but the effect is the same. I don't suppose it really matters what you call it, as long as you get the idea.

When I learned the so called internal way of Hooking punch in Yiquan style Heng Chuan, the only difference I can say I really noticed appreciably was the rooting, with my old boxing style hook if I wound it up and let rip and missed my root and posture was unstable, the so called internal way I can let rip and I still have a rootedness if I miss and so on, every time I always retain my rootedness, the external way I've noticed the rootedness is not always retained when you let it rip and miss, even with boxing greats you can sometimes see this.

Internal/external I've noticed there for me personally was little difference in the footwork, the main difference is in the alignment of hips to shoulders and usage of legs and pulling/opposites reaction however there is more sinking into the kua although you see many boxers do this, the other difference was in the legs they straighten stlightly on impact giving a slight upward power or "peng jin" to the hook.

That it really, although I find the advancing hook/heng chuan of yiquan hardest to master (Your advancing whith hsingi footwork and turn hook punch at end).

Thanks Kevin for translating the classics to me
I think they are a bit tricky to understand sometimes but I think I got it

Best Regards
Tobias