A discussion on spontaneous movement

Tim's Discussion Board: Concepts : A discussion on spontaneous movement
   By robert on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:17 pm: Edit Post

Hello Board,

have any of you had any experience or observance of spontaneous movement? and no its not a crazy concept off the top of my head.



http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/spontaneous_movement.html
If not thats okay. If so, please offer an opinion on how you approach and practice this.

I notice that during practice if you can empty your mind, and focus on using full body power in every movement, a sort of dance like form is then created, you can then apply this dance like flow to your techniques, and even shadowbox, stringing them together in a dancelike, flowing form, with an imaginary opp. in order to train intent and observation of opp. intent. if you can maintain concentration, your training will be manifested into your movements and movements will be logical. anyone know what im talking about? or am i shooting in the dark.

"In addition, athletes can use spontaneous movement to discover, develop, and learn how to control the force of spontaneous movement in various forms of athletic competition. Spontaneous movement can also help in artistic disciplines such as calligraphy, dancing, acting, singing, painting, and so on"


In a sense i know what this article is saying, and i feel that the concept is beneficial to ones martial arts practice. I know there are excellent fighters here and im just wondering and interested in your opinions. Any body apply this?

("here, want some of these canned worms? i just opened em")


   By robert on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 01:04 pm: Edit Post

http://members.aardvark.net.au/borr/beiji/spontaneous.htm


   By sponty (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 01:07 pm: Edit Post

If you get this type of movement, just take your pills robby.


   By Michael Andre Babin on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 03:11 pm: Edit Post

Spontaneous movements often occur in standing qigong and, depending on the teacher, are said to be part of the learning curve in standing still meditatiion; or are sometimes cultivated as something 'special'.

I tend to agree with the first approach and also think that spontaneous movement has nothing to do with martial skill.

It is also hard to avoid feeling that consciously cultivating spontaneous movement (as well as making such an activity an oxymoron) is counterproductive to understanding stillness of mind and body.


   By rob (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:22 pm: Edit Post

sponty, i wish i may i wish i might, just be able to kick your ass.


   By rob (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:25 pm: Edit Post

i think spontaneous movement has alot to do with martial skill, once a mastered movement becomes spontaneous, it is then useable. spontaneous being, the lag between thought and action completely gone.


   By Rob the Gob (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 10:08 am: Edit Post

Mexican standoffs don't happen when both parties are spontaneous !!!


   By Xing (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 04:36 pm: Edit Post

Here is an example of a deeper understanding of the art. However, it will not be practical until it is self-realized.

Sitting meditation is about NOT thinking. If you are sitting there and your conscious mind is engaged in thought, you are far from where you want to be. The first time you tried marital technique you had to think a lot. When you movements became committed to muscle memory, you found yourself acting (not reacting) spontaneously before nuro-activity occurred (conscious thought).

Have you ever performed a technique and when finished, your co-practitioner asked you to demonstrate it, and you could not remember the sequence of your movements? If you have, you were completely in the moment; time was void.

This type of awareness used with action occurs when one is based in the body (feeling as opposed to thinking, free from unwanted thought).

When one can choose to enter the moment at will, he does not think, actions are spontaneous and according to the moment and its site-specific variables.

Sitting meditation allows one to gain command of the mind and practice the awareness needed to act without thought - wu wei or wei wu wei (depending if it is used in a social or martial context).

Kung fu practitioners who practice more than the protection techniques are taught that when things are in balance, one does not physically act. Therefore, balance is allowed to continue, undisturbed.

If one encounters disturbance the art of kung fu has bestowed upon its dedicated practitioners the ability to restore balance by eliminating disturbance, either physically or mentally. Again depending on the context of the situation (are you at the Sunday dinner table and the in-laws are bothering you or did you get dropped off in the alley behind your house and as your friends sped off someone with a knife is approaching).

Command of the mind is used for two things: socially, the kung fu artist can choose to remain unaffected when he encounters natural pain, such as a cougar killing a dear of the natural pain of childbirth or even someone taking a beating that deserves it. (or he can choose to be affected for entertainment value etc.)

Martially, it allows one to be free of hesitation by not allowing the mind to think at an inappropriate time.

Sitting meditation, if you are skilled at it, helps both these kung fu abilities. It also enables you to remain true to your self-definition when in adverse situation, enabling one to be consistent with his convictions, exuding confidence in character.

Summing it up, going back to the beginning, highly skilled practitioners can immediately act, without thought. Conversely, they do not need to act to be able to enter the moment. Martial artist and fighting artist enter the moment while performing technique or fighting (action is needed as a crutch). Kung fu artists can enter the moment without having to use movement or a perceived threat or challenge.

Remember how easy it is now for you to perform technique. Those highly skilled in the art of kung fu use internal technique, as you use external technique, to accomplish awareness of the moment and stop useless thought. (Thought that at times persuades one to act out of character.)

These are some of the practical aspects of a complete kung fu education that develop one’s spirituality: acting with good intentions. A kung fu artist strives to be a lethal humanitarian. When one’s kung fu is used to harmonize an unbalanced situation, it is spiritual kung fu. When it is used to further one’s selfish advantage it is not.

The tiger represents the tactical advantage of the art. The dragon represents mystical wisdom. It is tiger AND dragon that is the ancient symbol of kung fu.

The authentic art does not separate feeling, thinking and acting, it unifies them by becoming skilled in all three. The body is not perfectly revealed until the mind is known, and the mind is not under command until one knows the body.

With body control and mind command, the heart provides intuitive guidance, as mind and body are no longer opposite they become one guided by heart. When one knows by heart, he has true confidence, he knows what he can do, and no longer only thinks what he can do (false confidence or arrogance). This is the power of knowing (from the heart) and the heart is the seat of the spirit. The power of knowing unleashes spontaneity.


   By D. Borg (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 06:42 am: Edit Post

From what I understand, I think there is a slight mixing of concepts in that article. All IMA is based on understanding the body's natural movements. But natural movements are not totally uncontrolled, or like sphasms. There is one concept, like pre-heaven movements, that is similar to what is said in the first thread. And the Hua To's five animals is based on precisely this taoist philosophy of pre-heavenly movements. There is also a whole lot of western studies on similar concepts, like what is published by Jaques Dropsy.


   By Michael Andre Babin on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 10:26 am: Edit Post

Spontaneity is essential in a good martial athlete or athlete/sportsman of any kind ... and this kind of skill is usually born from considerable experience as well as tactical skill. Oh, and it doesn't hurt to have some genetic apptitude; many practitioners never seem able to get "out of the box" in terms of how they react to anything that they haven't experienced in a formal training session, in their style.

Lack of the ability to be spontaneous in one's martial movement is very common in modern martial disciplines that rely too much on techniques and forms and not enough on basic training as well as principles of movement and posture.


   By robert on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:52 am: Edit Post

"The first time you tried marital technique you had to think a lot"

oh yeah, i was thinkin REAL HARD. just kidding, just thought id try to be funny.

Very interesting post xing, sometimes i feel like no one understands where im coming from when i rant, especially when low people and trolls like to stick their fat little noses in and talk smack.

i agree with everything you are saying. I also noticed that the type of mindlessness, is not exactly mindless, there has to be focus, and that my friend is the hard part, i can close my eyes and escape, and in a sense be mindless or thoughtless, but keeping the eyes and mind focused on objective and action, while maintaining a state of wuji, and linking actions, is very hard to do. during practice there are always invasive thoughts, hence i understand how a pure spirit is needed to attain true practice. to me it seems invasive thought is ultimately what you are trying to avoid.

i find it very profound how the ima's approach the development of this skil, though i do not feel that it is exclusive to ima, a good fighter is a good fighter, these skills are truly innate, and ma's bring out the best of it.

Lately ive been trying to link the conections between psychophysiology and ima's and how they exercise the mind and body, but its been driving me mad. I think its a little interesting how certain shizophrenics can hold static positions for even days, and they are crazy!

D.Borg, what do you consider natural movement? literally, all movement is natural, perhaps you can go more into depth about what you mean, dont get me wrong, im not trying to antagonize.

micheal, i agree.

imo, zhan zuang and xing zhuang,(thanks for the word tim) are the foundation for this type of practice.

forgive my rantings, im used to thinking and not discussing. thanks for the replies, very interesting viewpoints.

sincerely rob, the plastic bag blowing in the wind.


   By robert on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:55 am: Edit Post

Mexican standoffs don't happen when both parties are spontaneous !!!

i dont get it, your jokes are just too intelligent for me i guess.

and dont say that to my gramps cuz then you'll really know what a mexican standoff is.


   By Xing (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 03:01 pm: Edit Post

Robert,

In response:

“i agree with everything you are saying. I also noticed that the type of mindlessness, is not exactly mindless, there has to be focus, and that my friend is the hard part,”

Mind body and heart are synthesisized into one. That is where the power lies. People have no idea about how to train the heart.

They have little idea about how to train the mind.

There is a multitude of thought regarding the body.

To achieve spontaneity you must catalyze all of the above. Spontaneity in the moment is something that one moves in and out of. You can only be in the moment when you are feeling. Feeling reveal the true moment. Thinking takes you out of the moment. Unfortunately, we live almost exclusively out of the moment.

To stop thinking use the mind to focus on “feeling.”

Do not close your eyes. Breathe through the eye sockets (you will feel the eye lids rise) and feel your body. While inhaling drop the feeling to the perineum and when exhaling shoot it up the spinal cord to the crown of the head and then repeat the loop as you breathe. Consciously use the mind to understand this patterned breath. When it is second nature to you, the feeling will have replaced a need for unwanted thought.

Then you can use this in your MA practice to enter the moment, also to remain unaffected by the opposition.

“ i can close my eyes and escape, and in a sense be mindless or thoughtless, but keeping the eyes and mind focused on objective and action, while maintaining a state of wuji, and linking actions, is very hard to do. “

As previously mentioned, do not close your eyes, Practice your breathing and feeling with your eyes open.

With your mind and eyes open feel your body. Your action will be spontaneous and return to useful thinking when needed. Then into feeling when needed. The ability to use both feeling and thinking, when needed, leads to heart guidance (associated with intuition).

Do not consider this hard. Do not consider anything hard. This like everything else is natural. Easy and hard are states of thought that affect ones motivation.

“During practice there are always invasive thoughts, hence i understand how a pure spirit is needed to attain true practice. to me it seems invasive thought is ultimately what you are trying to avoid. “

Thought are invasive when they are extraneous to your objective. The mind thinks, like the body breaths. How the body breaths, like how the mind thinks, can be controlled by the heart.

”i find it very profound how the ima's approach the development of this skil, though i do not feel that it is exclusive to ima, a good fighter is a good fighter, these skills are truly innate, and ma's bring out the best of it.”

These are learned skills. The ability to perform these skills is innate, and their usage is instinctive, once you develop and apply them. Spontaneity is not peculiar to fighters and martial artists. Kung fu artist use it in daily life to provide, protect and communicate. Martial arts are an apparatus, like others, that can be used to develop this skill. Kung fu develops more than protection ability, if understood in total it is useful in all aspects of life.


   By robert on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 04:26 pm: Edit Post

Thank you xing. I appreciate your insight and wisdom. And i learned alot from yourposts.


   By Jill (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 06:28 am: Edit Post

I would also like to thank Xing. I'ts great to hear from someone who is intelligent and willing to share his wisdom with others. We need more people like him on this board.


   By Xing (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 12:41 pm: Edit Post

In responase to your appreciation:

“Like a smooth kung-fu technique, it is of no matter whether fast or slow, what is important is that we do not rush. If we rush, we are mind conscious and denied entrance to the moment. Feeling enables us to enter the moment where we act to harmonize disturbance or remain still and admire the existing balance.”

Feeling allows us to regain the moment and enables us to accept sensory input from the world around us. It is the same heightened sensory awareness that the kung fu artist uses when performing.

When I use the word “feeling,” do not mistake it for “emotions.” Let us also make a distinction between internal and external feeling. External feeling is physical. Internal feeling is metaphysical. Through the heart, it stretches beyond the body and connects our inner atmosphere with the universe. Unless otherwise stated, when the word “feeling” is used it refers to internal feeling, sensing the body’s inner atmosphere.

External feeling is using the five senses to experience the world in which we exist. Internal feeling, sensing our inner atmosphere, is a way of meditation and prayer. It is a medium of transmission and reception and a communication link to the vast expanse. When we connect inner and outer space, we enter the universal.

Feeling causes action. If we do not have control of the feeling process and lack the skill to choose when to feel, we allow others to influence us to act.

When others charge our actions, they are no longer ours, as they belong to both the one influencing them and the one influenced, therefore, they are no longer actions, they are reactions.

If we cannot manage the feeling process, we are lead and caught-up in reaction. Predictable, it is easy for others to use us. The factor that distinguishes action from reaction is timing. Action is based on our timing. Reaction is not.

Total body action (sutra) is a staple of the kung-fu experience. It is a method of using the complete body to advance. The total body propelled into and through the opposition, no matter its type, makes the advance no longer a matter of arm or leg strength. We garner strength and build power by synchronizing energy (synergy). We synergize strength with primal fury and body knowledge.

Charged with positive feeling, we use the total body to act. Total body action is not a reaction. It is leading, not following. Our synergized movements is our rhythm, when we apply it is according to our unadulterated timing.

Such internal synergy happens when we unite thought, feeling and knowing from the heart. Bonded together they are more than their individual pieces.

In the performance mode of kung fu technique, we are engaged with the opposition in simulated combat. When the other moves, we perceive their movements in at times what appears to be slow motion. Time is voided by abandoning the mind as we feel our body and its position.

Then the mind enters at the body’s request, and we become conscious. In flash moments, we realize our position.

The mind “discovers” our position because no thought went into the positioning; therefore, when the mind enters it immediately orientates itself to the body’s situation, as if all is new – perceiving the situation as a discovery.

Experiencing this it is as if we are realizing our self and our position - but we are actually realizing the mind’s sense-of-self.

The occurrence seems like memory because the mind has made us conscious; but what has happened is that the mind has taken us out of awareness (where we feel our body, know the true self and use the heart as our guide) and returned to mental consciousness.

Pure memory is the body experiencing what it knows. Vicarious memory is the mind thinking to remember what the body knows.

After the mind has served us, the body commands it to disengage and we reenter the moment and continue our actions using the body’s knowledge, feeling our next movement and experiencing the power of knowing from the heart.

Feeling allows us be creative. When we produce a spontaneous creation that fits the moment - we experience freedom from thought and know truth. We are in accord with the tao; doing the right thing in the right place at the right time – essential kung fu. We are not standing at our destination, waiting, lost at the very moment we should be here. We are where we are supposed to be; here right-now.

To learn technique we use the mind to teach the body. When we know technique by heart, the body is enlightened and we use it to command the mind. Generally, we use thinking first because it is our most developed skill. The star player, the one we go to when in a predicament.

When we are in the learning aspect or practice mode of kung-fu training, we use the mind to enter new intelligence and purify our existing body knowledge. Increasing spinal consciousness by accumulating body knowledge, we no longer depends solely on thinking; we use spinal consciousness to act. When it is time to perform, the body is our star player and the mind is the costar.

When the kung-fu artists salute each other, they join open hand with closed fist, uniting yin and yang, and then extend it from the heat.

Extending the hands from the heart signifies sincere intention to cooperate and perpetuate balance. When the two hands touch there is connectedness and feeling, a melding of energy and freedom from thought, and their intentions project into the universal.


If you would like information regarding the Power of Knowing - just ask. It is the essence of why most are studying martial arts.


   By HRH (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 03:42 pm: Edit Post

Xing, awesome posts.
plain beautiful. I love your straight forward knowledge. No round the barn nor any perversion.
I love what you said about feeling and sutra.
That by any chance wasn't "deliberate feeling" was it?
Xing, you also remind me of a Mon Haw Woo whom used to post on this site. You both clearly have tremendous knowledge!
~HRH


   By Jill (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 06:37 pm: Edit Post

Xing, We would love information about Power of Knowing. Thank-you for the information that you gave us so far. Where did you learn all of
this Knowledge? Thank-you, Jill


   By Xing (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 08:08 pm: Edit Post

Hi Jill,

You seem to be genuine. Can you tell me if you study kung fu or a martial arts? Do you have any philosophical interests or background such as Landmark Forum, Taoism, Martial Arts or have you read any books like The Power of Now, The 4 agreements or Loving What Is.

If you have not, may I suggest them?

The Power of Now is a classic. I find it the best Kung fu book I have read. It presents pertinent Buddhist, Taoist base knowledge. It would take reading many Asian classic to discover the same knowledge. It is not an easy read. But it is a great read. It delivers more insight from each visit.

My knowledge comes from four years of studying Kung fu and thirty years of study and application. I have written two interpretations of Asian Classics (Tao Te Ching and Go Rin No-sho (Book of Five Rings).

The last post was gleaned from the my latest endeavor.

HRH,

Thank you for your generosity. A writer’s life is full of sacrifice. Anyone who ascribes to this discipline will attest.

Encouragement at times is the only sustenance a scribe receives.

Again thank you.

Any meaningful dialog in which I can engage in with anyone who participates in this discussion board is delightful and rewarding.


   By Jill (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 10:34 pm: Edit Post

Hello Xing, I have studied Martial Arts for about 10 years, but have become more interested in Kung Fu over the last 3 years.
I will order The Power of Now, it sounds like what I am looking for. I have Book of 5 Rings, but will have to go over it again, I don't remember "Power of Knowing". Thank-you for your help.
Jill


   By nonenlightened one (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 02:54 pm: Edit Post

Oh boy.


   By robert on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 08:39 pm: Edit Post

xing, nice posts,

so lets venture to the other side of the spectrum, what can you share of your knowledge of training techniques? imo, the power of knowing in ma is useless without a strong internal/external body obtained through physical training.


   By Xing (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 10:58 am: Edit Post

Robert,

Thank you.

There are many physical traning technique that are well documented in a myrad of styles.

The power of knowing is obtainable and useful without any martial art training.

Martial arts are a learning apparatus that can be used to develop charcter such as spontaniety and knowing in daily life, if the instructor sees it as such.

Technical lessons are bestleft to you current instructor. I do not suggest learning them from a web site or book.


   By robert on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 04:57 pm: Edit Post

i feel that martial training is the backbone of things such as spontaneous movement and uniting mind and body. no training, then no kung fu:-)

the power of knowing (body and mind awareness?) is useful only in combat when one is able to apply their skills effectively, to apply skills effectively one must have adequete skill, strength, and knowledge.

ive looked over the book of five rings, and it doesnt say anything new to me. and the most valueble knowledge that i have learned has been from books, not teachers. its when you can teach yourself that you can obtain true knowledge, teachers are merely guides.

so let me rephrase my question if i may,

can you explain some of the methods that your teachers have used to train you. dont worry, i wont hurt myself. honestly, i am beginning to doubt you.


   By robert on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 08:22 pm: Edit Post

xing, please forgive my cynical behavior. man i gotta stop drinking, seriously.


   By Jill (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 11:01 pm: Edit Post

Yea, robert, drinking isn't good for much. But that's a good question for Xing. He seems like a wise man


   By Sarah (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 01:03 pm: Edit Post

robert i believe there AA meetings in California,
although dont goto AAA in a drunken stupor.
xing-please keep posting and share your knowledge. i've been reading and it sounds like you are the reall deal; its sad to see the there aren't many people like you. Only other person that has explained himself as well as you was Mon Haw Woo.
happy posting,
Sarah


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