Question for Tim about Joining Centers

Tim's Discussion Board: Concepts : Question for Tim about Joining Centers
   By Nick Rundy on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 03:37 pm: Edit Post

Tim, I finished reading your Combat Throws book and was hoping you would be able to elaborate on "Joining Centers" for me. When I attempt to put the concept into my own words I am unsure whether the concept as presented in your book refers to the act of simply "synchronizing the movement of your torso/hips with that of your opponent's" so that once this is accomplished you have joined centers (whether or not you decide to carry this accomplishment further with a throw or not) OR whether it specifically refers to the state one is in where "one moves one's own body through the motion of a throw and because of joined centers (physical contact while following the opponent's force) the opponent is thrown."

In addition, something I've always found confusing in the Taijiquan Classics is the talk of Following, Sticking, Adhering, and Connecting. You added so much clarity to much of the language in the Taijiquan Classics in the Appendix of your book, I was hoping you might be able to help me understand what is meant by these terms better. I was also wondering if "Connect and Join Centers" describes Sticking and Connecting as mentioned in the Classics? For example, when the Taiji Classics talk about Connecting, are they talking about Joining Centers?

Thanks for any insight you got time to share, man. Much appreciated.


   By Nick Rundy on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 09:01 am: Edit Post

I wasn't able to edit my original post so I wanted to add a post with the Pinyin names to give some clarity to the interchangeable use of terms that I used to describe these concepts: Following (Sui), Sticking (Zhan), Adhering (Nian), and Connecting (Lian).


   By Tim on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 07:58 pm: Edit Post

Hi Nick,

Joining centers involves exerting contol over your opponent's center of gravity so that he can be moved as a part of yourself. You can join centers directly (as in a hip toss for example) or indirectly, "through" an appendage (for example you can twist the forearm so that it locks the elbow which locks the shoulder and down the spine to to opponent's hips). It is generally easier to join centers with close body contact. My concept is closer to the latter definition you gave above.

Zhan refers to making contact with an opponent; the contact should be firm enough to exert control but relaxed enough to maintain sensitivity and the ability to change as needed. Nian refers to maintaining contact or adjusting point(s) of contact to obtain or maintain a superior position. Lian is to maintain continuous pressure on the opponent without a break. Sui is to follow the movement of the opponent in order to contol his center (like a heat seeking missle follows the exhaust of a plane). The combination of the method aims at limiting and controlling your opponent's movements and options while increasing your own. The way to do this is to control the opponent's center.


   By Nick Rundy on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 08:57 am: Edit Post

Jee, thanx for the info Tim. So "Joining Centers" it sounds like isn't Lian. I wondered if it was because, among other things, in some of the literature I have seen Lian translated as Joining.

If I could just trouble you a little more to make sure I understand this correctly:

When you describe Lian as maintaining continuous pressure on the opponent without a break, do you mean exerting force to some extent, like a pressing down or in or across with your hands or arms? Perhaps, at times, this is accomplished primarily through a settling of your weight through your limb/s into the opponent? Or is the pressure your applying more analogous to something like "mental stress or pressure" from having someone constantly stuck to you and finding structurally weak points to push and pull on? To achieve the goal of this pressure on the opponent you will continue to apply it until either you gain a (direct or indirect) link to the opponent's center or the opponent changes the angle at which point you would reposition your angle of pressure via Nian to a newly presented structurally weak point. And in this way, the combo of Sui, Zhan, Nian, and Lian culminates in your upsetting the opponent's center? If this is accurate, could one say "Joining Centers" or obtaining control over your opponent's center is the end game of Sui, Zhan, Nian, and Lian?


   By Tim on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 07:51 pm: Edit Post

"If this is accurate, could one say "Joining Centers" or obtaining control over your opponent's center is the end game of Sui, Zhan, Nian, and Lian?"

Right.


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