So I was sparring yesterday and got caught by a fairly good low and powerful Muay Thai style low kick, just had enough time to counter the second one and throw.

Just what counters/responses are there in Taiji/Hsingi/Bagua for this type of thing, very little it taught and most instructors/sifu shy away from teaching defence against this kick cause basically they don't know how... so who does?

shui jiao and san da have a lot of ideas. one of the primary methods of initiating wrestling techniques that I was taught by my san da coach was to catch the lower leg as it is striking the leg, and to then use control of the leg to secure any number of leg picks, sweeps and pickups.

My favorite...from Chinese Wrestling, is to bring the heel of leg being kicked to your butt just before impact. This will enclose his kicking shin between your calf and hamstring, then just change levels, catch the foot and take him down.

I use it against real good pro kickboxers. They are always shock!

that's exactly what i was taught. squat as the kick is landing, so that the foot gets caught in the crook of your knee. Wrap it up like a bjj ankle lock, and do what you will with little kicky.

I can see that move working only maybe if they are powering the kick right through, when the Thai guy does the 360 spin type low kick, but the kick I got caught with came in mega fast and went back opposite way as fast as it came in, I just had enough time to turn out knee (knee when bent is very hard and meets their shin) and brace for impact, which I was taught by a Muay Thai guy. The next kick that came in was higher and just fell into my hands where I was in a kinda Hsingi monkey posture without thinking and caught kick stepped in and opened my posture with considerable jing which polaxed sparring partner.

If I used your move guys I think I woulda ended up with a opponent oppostie foot speedily heading toward my jaw.

How can you tell if they are gonna snap the kick or power through, If I'm fighting I ain't got enougth time to study their posture, and the good guys can hide what they are gonna do, it's a move that will only work on maybe low level Thai kickers, maybe? Unless you seen it done for real in UFC, Cage Rage?

I've done it against pro NHB fighters. Much easier than a kickboxer, who is much more proficient with the kick. If you have the timing to "check" a kick, then you can do the tactic above.

You ask for adivice. I game you mine. Use it, practice it, find your own way or just continue being kicked.

Lift the leg being kicked and move it away from the kick. Less resistence means less impact. If the kicker follows all the way through with the kick you are then in a position to move in behind him and actually attack from the rear. If he doesn't he must still retract the kick and you can follow it, moving in to execute your attack.

Charlie this technique is ideal and is also used in Silat, but that's in an ideal world, the fact of the matter is that all this fancy technique described is great in an ideal scenario, and if that were the case no one would ever end up getting kicked, but they do... and I will continue to keep getting kicked in sparring, I'm sure I could do the above technique on an inferior MA, but not on a high level Muay Thai guy.

If you can intercept the timing or heaven forbid actually anticipate successfully you end up with the grapple type counter, an externally derived technique (externally derived technique is you do this and I anticipate or plan my next move in advance… and do that) however if you just react on the spur of the moment with internally derived technique (internally derived technique you do this and your action creates my reaction, I don't know what I did, or was gonna do but I know I did it!) internally derived technique my look like a bonafide move or at it’s most subtle a slight change of body angle and so on.

I’m not saying externally derived technique is no good, it’s fine against an inferior MA guy than yourself, but internally derived technique is what can really save your ass against another masterhand !

The counter I was shown to the Muay Thai kick was from a Muay Thai adept, if you meet force with force before the other force has gained momentum there is less force of impact but there are also subtle angles you can turn leg to receive force when you get caught out and aint got enough time.

if you absorb the impact with technique that backarcher and i described, he'll either retract the leg before contact is made, or he will over extend further than he expected to kick before retracting. As such, he'll be there with his leg out longer than expected, giving you all the time you need. Fast guys are tough to catch. But practice and timing it works.
Look up some San Da videos. Those guys are just as proficient with the low kicks as muay thai fighters, but they still get their leg grabbed from time to time. the catch works. I catch a couple of TKD kids that I train with all the time. They don't commit to anything, and i still grab them before they get away.
THEN IT"S MY TURN!

Hi guys,

I have actually used the technique I mentioned in the earlier post. I have also used the force versus force idea. That will work too but with a slight variation on the turn of the leg. The earlier post if you lift the leg and start to fade away from the leg kick it is like slipping a punch to your head. What you do after that depends on the reaction of the kicker. If he has overcommitted to the kick it will swing through and you are in the perfect position to step in to his outside and then take him from the backside. If he quickly retracts the kick you are still in a position to move quickly forward for your counter. Remember, your foot is off the floor so all you have to do is step forward toward the retreating kicker rather than place the foot back where it was previously. Remember too that when someone kicks he is temporarily out of his normal defensive posture and is more susceptible to counters. I'm assuming, of course that he is kicking your front leg with his facing leg (the one on the same side as the leg he is trying to kick). In other words your left leg is forward and he is kicking with his right leg.

The meeting force with force idea is fine but I prefer a variation. If the scenario is the same as above. You can indeed turn the leg to meet the oncoming kick but if you also shift forward you can catch his leg at the knee. Consider that his leg will be extended while yours is flexed. If you meet his knee, or even a couple of inches below his knee, while the leg is straight his force striking against your leg high on the shin or at your bent knee will hyper-extend his knee joint. In effect, you push his knee backwards by using his own force against him.

I am not saying that this will work in every case, nothing does, but it will work often enough to make it worth trying. I did use the first mentioned technique against a fairly high level Muay Thai. He was (Yes, this was long ago when I was young) Thailand's retired Middleweight Champion. He had retired a few months earlier and was vacationing in Taiwan.

Hey 69 you still staying up at night waiting for me to like you again?

Tell us about your real world fighting experience, in detail, instead of just alluding to them. I am sure it would be interesting. We could learn how to keep out of trouble, right?

ElV,

How do you know that I haven't been in my share of trouble? Late night isn't a problem for me, I retired from the Federal Government at the end of 2005. As for you liking me again, well, that's your decision. Each of us has the right to like or dislike every other person we meet, or don't meet. I'm more of a loner anyway. I have only a couple of close friends. I had another, but he died.

To be honest, I like animals, primarily dogs. You always know how a dog feels about you. He or she tells you in his/her way. And should a dog really take a liking to you he will always be your friend. Nothing two faced about dogs. People on the other hand are another story. There are three things I really dislike in a person: 1. a lack of integrity 2. arrogance 3. a lack of moral courage.

Besidess, it's not for me to keep you out of trouble. Each of us has to walk a path that he has chosen to walk. I'll walk mine. You walk yours.

Charlie does sound convincing on that one, most Muay Thai guys will spar with you if you ask them nicely, and flexing the knee joint to meet oncoming attacking leg is exactly what I was shown by a Muay Thai guy, the leg is mega strong at knee joint when flexed (bent), but funny also it is also very week at knee joint when extended, also there is no funny bone (that I am aware of) to be wary of unlike the elbow joint.

Charlie,

I'm not trying to infringe upon your personal freedoms, heaven forbid!

I was just trying to glean a tip or two from your life experience, I didn't mean to threaten your sense of privacy.

A dog lover! Hope your aren't Korean.

Since we are becoming so e-harmonious regarding our likes and dislikes, let me add some of my personal dislikes.

People that go along with the crowd cause they are to lazy or stupid to think for themselves.

People that have no idea of who they are.

Followers that cannot also lead.

Those who have no personality or sense of humor and finally goverments! oh yeah and the people that staff them.

Oh we have another thing in common, I had a couple of dogs but one of them died. So I ate it. Had a Korean BBQ in the back of my KIA.

Like John Lennon said "Give People a Chance."(you never know, one day your might want to bang one - doggy style)

Wuff wufff!

Good, simple suggestions... I had a guy try out the "leg lift" last week. the first time he tried it his timing was off and I caught his heel on my instep. even though he missed the technique it definitely caught my attention. I'm gonna keep playing w/ it.

Years ago, I was taught to "roll" w/ the low kick. i.e. move the lead foot in the direction of the oncoming kick and counter w/ a spinning backhand and back kick. lol...of course I never got this to work well and it meant my back was
exposed. I like your suggestions.

anyone know a good drill or resources for practicing bridging on a guy who is using a front kick. I was taught to use the arm to "sweep up" the kicking leg, it works great in practice, but I can't get the timing right in non-cooperative situations and I keep eating the kick to the chest!!! lol...

humble and hurt

This is gonna sound very un-technique like, or plain simple mad (I thought it was till I mustered up the bravery/madness to try it) whatever, anyhow when you see the front kick coming step forward with all your might and meet the kick with your body, suddenly exterting core strength/stability (I,m assuming your reasonably strong practicing MAs and are not ill), timing is the key, and you need to meet the force before it's reached maximum impetus. If you get it right they go flying back. The Chinese Jargon, some call it Borrowing Jin, Bouncing Jin and is executed when your opponent has generated the idea of an attack or is emmitting an attack, just as force has started or initiated, at this moment, if you can sense this incoming Jin and generate a force against it, the opponents mind/force will be interrupted suddenly and his energy/technique/confidence will be bounced back.

An example is when you are quickly rushing trying to get into a lift and the doors suddenly shut on you, and your reaction bounce/topple back. There was no physical interaction, but you topple back, your mind has been hit. This is at the highest level of the technique, but don't wast your time trying this with the opponent just make sure you bang em one i.e. borrow from their power at the right moment.

It is one of the most difficult techniques, Grandmaster Wang Shu Jin & Grandmaster Wang Xiangzhai great Hsingi masters were adept at this type of Technique among other masters.

This is probably where a lot of mysticism comes from when people feel this technique they think it is something mysterious at work.

ouch, yeah, that does sound crazy! sounds like an experiment destined for pain lol...

seriously though, i get the idea of what your saying, but uhhh, you go first then i'll try it!!!

maybe i should film several days of trying this out. it would be a pretty funny montage of me eating kicks
Me speaking to sparring partner: "alright, don't hold back this time....ugghhhh!..."
Partner: "you ok man? maybe we should work on something else? you're looking a little worn out"
Me: "No, No, i'm alright, besides fatboy said a couple of Hsingi masters used it."
Partner: "Who's Fatboy?"
Me: "never mind, now could you help me gather up my intestines...they slipped out me arse on that last one"


just kiddin':
i believe you, and i don't think its mysticism.

i think you make an interesting point too since i realized that i'm hesitating just slightly going in, maybe thinking about how cool i'm gonna look when i dump this dude on his ass, or maybe i'm just worried about getting smacked again. regardless, i'm pausing just long enough in the striking range to get hit. i'm sure w/ experience my timing will get better (if i'm not wearing a coloscopy bag). the Xingyi mentality (GO IN, DON'T HESITATE) is probably a good prescription for me.

Yea, just make sure you don't eat the kick in the goolies... ouch !!

Right,
i hate the cup.
one guy wears a groin/abdominal protector, on the outside of his sweat pants Mike Tyson style. thats fine, but the funny thing is he shows up w/ it on...i mean, he drives to the workout w/ it on. i swear i saw him get out of his car wearing it. i wonder if Tyson wore those things around the house for fun?
thats scary...
the guys at Shenwu sound like they hammer pretty good. yall wear cups? sorry if that is a personal question...lol

defense for a muai thai low kick? haha, simple...

do a triple backflip. or, lift the leg, or, step in, or, reach down and grab the leg, or kick the leg,or
if it is aaimed at the left leg, stepin a tight circle to the right back corner and counter with a spinning heel kick or a spinning side kick to the gut, you can jump too.

or, grab the opponents head and headbut him furiously

Everyone has his preferences but I don't use spinning kicks or spinning back fists in sparring, competition, or street fights. I simply don't like the idea of executing a technique that requires me to present my back to an opponent for a possible counter. No insult intended for those who like these techniques.

your back is not that exposed if you spin right, after the movement your side should be facing the opp. not your back. its not a spinning back kick, and i dont know why they call it a spinning "back" fist just because you sometimes strike with the back of the fist, they should call it side fist or something...

The back fist spinning whatever you call it, if caught at the right angle, then trapped, there back is to you, you hook your arm around theirs and turn, trailing arm technique, present hip to their arse and extend, like sun style needle to sea bottom, there spinning back fist is countered by a nasty shuai jia throw, they could end up landing backward head first on the floor, unless you let em break fall out of it (i.e. throw slower), perhaps thats why that type of move the spinning backfist is not taught (that I know of) in some neijia systems ?? What do you think?

i think that catching kicks takes a lot of hard practice, but it works.

One of my training partners is a muay thai guy, and the best defence i could find was simply to run away!