OK LETS TALK ABOUT TRICKS!!!

Tim's Discussion Board: Concepts : OK LETS TALK ABOUT TRICKS!!!
   By DO-DO DO on Wednesday, May 02, 2001 - 10:32 am: Edit Post

Hello G,day and bonjour

This is a follow on from Serges "Fighting tricks,
arts of combat or martial arts"

I thought we'd talk about some martial art combat tricks!!

I know a good one. Throw a good right hook and wait for your opponent to block, then (using a crane fist or fuk sau) hook the block out of the way and slam on!!

WADAYA RECKON GUYS N' GIRLS!!! WORKS ALMOST EVERY TIME FOR ME!!!


   By I really DO on Wednesday, May 02, 2001 - 11:42 am: Edit Post

As your name implies, so goes your concepts. You obviously do not practice internal.


   By DODO DO on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 12:57 pm: Edit Post

What do you mean? Whats not "internal" about that?


please give an "internal" example of stratergy or
trick.


   By Bob on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 02:38 pm: Edit Post

I think what he means is that your example is not necessarily in keeping with internal principles, i.e. not fighting force with force, moving to a superior angle, borrowing force etc.
Generally in a hands up situation an internal practitioner would not decide what they are specifically going to do prior to contact with the opponent. This type of mindset would negate the need and reason behind sensitivity training.

Regards
Bob Shores


   By stc on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 04:17 pm: Edit Post

Hey Bob..

what about xing yi.. i thought the point was to finish the fight as quickly as possible.. just walk through them ..

(and if you are Betty then also pick up and bed the nearest hottie too)

ok.. peace

stc


   By Bob on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 04:58 pm: Edit Post

STC,

I can't answer you specifically about Xing Yi since it is not my area of expertise. I do however doubt that an experienced Xing Yi fighter would determine what specific technique he would apply prior to making contact with the opponent. This is speculation on my part based on my limited knowledge of the style. My comment was more generic in nature regarding internal arts as a whole. Doesn't Xing Yi involve gaining a positional advantage and then plowing through them? I am under the impression that this is a common strategy among the internal arts.

Regards
Bob Shores


   By stc on Friday, May 04, 2001 - 06:22 am: Edit Post

Hey Bob..

from what little i've tried i can't really comment authoritatively (however you spell it) .. i'm just a poor bagua baby.. but it certainly feels like the xing yi person is walking straight through you ..

ok.. yours in more confusion

stc

ps I have seen Yi Quan demo with someone doing exactly what was described at the top.. hook /roll and more hook ..very much like western boxing


   By Rick Matz on Friday, May 04, 2001 - 01:36 pm: Edit Post

Everyone knows, Tricks are for kids.

Best Regards,

Rick


   By Erik on Saturday, May 05, 2001 - 11:03 am: Edit Post

I for one love this entry if I understand it right. Say your opponent has a right lead and you have a left lead (classic open stance in Bagua or southpaw in western boxing). You snatch your opponents lead with your lead and swing a strike to the opponents head. He either gets smacked in the head or blocks. You then stick and move his hand out of the way giving you many options. You can follow up with a strike with either hand, pummel in for a throw, etc. It is a common entry in Bagua and a classic entry and application for Single Whip in Taijiquan. If done correctly it has a beautifully powerful flow and the momentum created as you close in to join centers and spin or strike is very powerful. If it's done right it's internal. ...and what's wrong with thinking ahead - connecting mentally before connecting physically? Comments?


   By DIZZY as a DODO on Saturday, May 05, 2001 - 12:55 pm: Edit Post

Ahh maybe thats what I really do means!
Thanx Bob

Well if you were say pulling or hooking the blocking arm in the direction it was already going
in effect guiding it further then was originally
intended, it would not be force on force just good timing. Theres also nothing stopping you moving to a superior position, like hooking with right arm to opponents left and moving to his right side.
Or if you need to play a little more heavy (co's your timing isn't so good or you encounter a more solid block) you could use Peng force with the underside of the (cranes beak) forearm, and if you
get a bite (ie resisting force)immediately pull the arm out of the way. You could even use borrowing energy to pull and turn the entire body.
Theres an old "internal" arts saying, "a push to a push and a pull to a pull" that implies that energy can be borrowed from either an expansive or contracting force.

I think a good fighter internal or external could do well to have an adaptable strategy. One that takes into account any and all divergence from the
intended goal of a particular technique, and the tools (like sensitivity, advantageous position, borrowing etc) to make it come to fruition.

Take a Hsing Yi or Xing Yi man for instance. His intended goal is to strike an opponent hard as that is what he has trained mostly to do. He wishes to use the movement "rise drill overturn and fall" to obtain his goal. If on contact with the opponents arm block he can not wedge his way through with a rise drill movement, he can by use of a subtle change of angle and sensitivity, use the same rise drill action to obtain a downward resistence from the opponent that will allow him to remove the offending arm with the overturn fall portion of his movement.
However if the opponent grabs his hand in the process of the rise drill action and attempts to pull him of balance, he can use his sensitivity and borrowing skill to rebound the pulling force thereby causing the opponent to loose his (or her)
own balance, that will in turn allow Hsing Yi dude to pull the offending arm out of the way and get on with the original intention of striking.

Now, if a third party was to view this interaction
in an "external" way, he would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the first second or third means of echieving the strike. He might just see one man rushing another, pulling the arm down and striking.

wow i'm tired.must go now.

THANX
DIZZY

P.S. Has anyone got any more trickniques!!


   By Dizzy on Saturday, May 05, 2001 - 01:22 pm: Edit Post

Nice thinking Erik (I was writing as you were sending)

I did infact first learn this originally in Tai Chi classes. By the way how do you get your paragraphs to stay in one block!! I can't seem to do it and it makes it look so scrapy.

DIZZY

p.s. Would love to get into the connecting mentally thing but i'm a bit tired so maybe we can pick up later.

P.P.S I never knew it was southpaw always thought it was southbore or boar or something. silly me too much time in the gym and not enough in the library!! Thanx 4 dat!


   By Dizzy on Wednesday, May 09, 2001 - 07:15 am: Edit Post

Oh, it would seem my May 5th 10.55 a.m. posting was not worth a response!!

wasamatter guys? does the fact that one initiates an interchange with a specific technique exclude said one from being an internal fighter. I mean sensitivity in a fight can be used for one or two things, To lead/put the opposition into a disadvantageous position, or nip in the bud any attempt at putting you in a disadvantageous position. The application of the tools you gain in internal arts is completely down to you.

Theres a fine line between fishing and standing on a river bank pointing a stick at the great yonder!! The line is the intention to not go hungry......to survive!! When the fish takes a bite then ofcourse we have to feel it out. We might have to let him run a little to the left or a little to right, wait for the right moment and pop! he's like a fish out of water!!

Oh well, I guess I,m waxing too philosphical, but I tell you somethin, I fillup-my-sock-a-full with my feet every day and practice.

Listen guys (and Beth.......Ok and Betty!!), the very fact that you practice internal arts means that there is a certain amount of trickery involved. You trick your opponents nervous system into thinking one thing is happening, when something else is definitely afoot!! or he/she thinks she/he is in contact with a solid suface, when in fact it's subtley rotating/leading,etc.

Any old road I'd just like to swap a couple of trickniques incase I find myself in a compromising
position (oh no!! Bob#2's gona hava field day!!)

Anyway forward and onward!!!


   By Bob on Wednesday, May 09, 2001 - 11:47 am: Edit Post

OK Dizzy I'll bite,

I don't have a problem talking with you, but I practice Wing Chun, so not only our movement styles but even our terminology is quite different. Here is something I don't understand that maybe you can clear up. In your post of May 5 that you referred to you stated;

"Theres an old "internal" arts saying, "a push to a push and a pull to a pull" that implies that energy can be borrowed from either an expansive or contracting force."

To me this implies fighting force with force. If he is pushing and you are pushing that is force against force. If he is pulling and you are pulling this too is force against force. Should this not have been stated 'a push to a pull and a pull to a push'? That makes more sense to me.

Regards
Bob Shores


   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, May 09, 2001 - 01:01 pm: Edit Post

Dizzy,
In response to your 5/5 10:55 post:
no, I don't have any trickniques.

In response to your 5/5 11am question about keeping the paragraphs in a block- Only press enter at the end of your paragraph. Or don't press enter at all... the program handles the text and spaces in block format-'enter' complicates that.

In response to your 5/9 5:15am post:
"wasamatter guys? does the fact that one initiates an interchange with a specific technique exclude said one from being an internal fighter" --- I think you are mistaking lack of interest in replying to your 'trickniques' post as being some sort of group effort to ignore you.
Just so you wont feel ignored, here's my two cents: Any skill at anything could be considered a trick- but folks who are skilled at anything wont call a skill a trick so it's a dead end discussion.

Good luck with that sock-a-full of foot.
wax on, wank off.
Bob #2


   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 01:05 am: Edit Post

Concerning the original post,
It's excellent. It can be (& is) applied by internal martial-arts practicioners (it's also applied by boxers) -- it's a decent strategy that usually works (much like John Steyers' wheeling attack strategy that was taught to some Marines). Many fighters DO go into a fight having a basic strategy (or two) -- it's what combinations (such as in boxing) are all about; and it's what set-ups (in throwing) are all about. Keep DO-DO DOing it!


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