Sum Guye,

Do you lift weights? Also, what is your response to my concern of mentally conditioning yourself to resist against incoming force rather than yielding to it? When I was in the police academy I had to do weight lifting, and I noticed that my responses to certain type attacks changed during the time I was lifting. Specifically, I recall someone playing around and grabbing my wrist. My reaction was to tense my bicep and resist the force. Even though I had long ago developed a much better reaction to this type of attack.

I lift weights sometimes. I feel best when I can get to the gym two or three times a week, but I rarely have enough free time... and I haven't been in a month because I have two slipped disks in my neck.

Regarding your concern of mentally conditioning to
resist against force... you may be right... but
in most weight lifting your body is stationary
and you're isolating one section of your body to strengthen and gain mass. Resistance while moving that mass around with trained foot work is a different matter... I reckon.

I think that when you train IMA's you are creating mind/body unity but that does not exclude you from doing anything else. I recently had a conversation with a man who told me cross training was wrong because I am confusing my central nervous system. I think he is way out in left field. If he were correct Michael Jordan would have been incapable of playing both basketball and baseball. Movement is directed by the mind, as is relaxation. I do not believe that resistance training for developing muscular strength will in and of itself cause your mental process to somehow over-ride all your internal training so that you now choose to fight force with force. That just makes no sense to me. I could see how heavy lifting could slow you down, but I don't think weight training is counter productive if done properly. I think the key is balance. Too much of anything can be a bad thing. Well there's my two cents.

Regards
Bob Shores

Bob,

Thanks for your response. I'm surprised you say my concern "makes no sense" to you. You say that movement and relaxation are directed by the mind.
So, tension is directed by the mind as well. My contention is that when one is practicing an "internal" martial art and focusing on relaxing, or what I call minimal tension, he is attempting to rid the natural tendency of excessive tension.
The novice practitioner constantly must remind himself to relax, relax, relax. When a person lifts weights they are thinking resist, resist, resist. Wether lifting or sparring we can be presented with a force to overcome. That external stimulus asks for a response. I believe lifting weights predisposes you to a response of excessive tension. However, I don't think cross training between basketball and baseball is in any way counter productive. I see this more as a challenge of coordination or body control.

Let me preface this by saying that no offense was intended. I did not say "your concern makes no sense". What I meant was that the supposition that strengthening the muscles will produce an inability to relax and control those same muscles makes no sense "to me". This is just my opinion. I am not trying to convince you to agree, just taking part in the dialogue. Hopefully Tim will share his perspective on this soon.

Regards
Bob Shores

Please see my response to George (Conditioning???) under Qi Gong/Power Training

I am new to this forum but I have heard many excuses over the years of why martial artists should not lift weights. I tend to hear these excuses from internal artists more than I do from some external practioners. Talking about fa jing and chi are great but are you able to use it during sparring and in a real fight. One well known Hsing I teacher says he does not like words like chi and fa jing because it implies some sort of hocus pocus mystical power, but instead he prefers words like relaxation, proper body mechanics and alignment. I am 100% in total agreement with this teacher. By the way Bruce Lee lifted weights and was extremely fast, agile and very strong for his size.

It is a misnomer that weights will make you stiff and inflexible, it all depends on how you lift. There are many great western boxers, muy thai boxers, grapplers and No Hold Bar Fighters who lift weights and by no means do they lack speed, flexibility or timing. I don't mean to sound cynical but I have never heard any fighter mention that he knocked his opponent out using his chi or fa jing, it was either with superior technique, strength or conditioning. I also find that a person whose body is conditioned with weight training or body weight calisthenics can withstand greater punishment than someone who is just doing chi gong exercises. If this wasn't the case then fighers would have abondoned their conditioning routines along time ago and just practice cultivating chi exercises.

I plan on studying Hsing I in the near future and seriously doubt I will abandon lifting weights. I have not seen any proof that weight lifting has negative consequences on fighting ability. Lets remember before the internal arts became esoteric by a few yuppies, they were fighting arts which meant you had to have a strong body. I am not implying that weight lifting is the only method of achieving strength but it is a viable method if used correctly.

But could a 'weight lifter' chew through their
own ankles to free themselves from an overturned car, I think not.

Bob, once again it depends on how you are lifting. When weight training you can train to failure or not, I personally don't advocate training to failure because recovery takes longer and it leaves you feeling stiff. Using a full range of motion when lifting is important, and can actually increase flexibility. There are weight lifters who practice yoga or pilates which keeps the body very flexible and agile.

Many gymnasts use weights, but their lifting is combined with other activities to ensure flexibility. A gymnast might do pullups, chinups, and dips with a 25lb plate around their waist and continue to increase the weight as their strength builds up. Another exercise gymnasts love to do which builds great strength are handstand push ups. There are gymnasts who do standard weight lifting exercises such as bench pressing, squatting, deadlifting, etc and they do not lose their flexibility. Look at the developed bodies of sprinters; short distance runners. They spent time in the gym lifting weights and it does not impede their speed on the track instead it is a tool that helps.

I tend to believe the martial artists that have this view of weight lifting destroying flexibility, agility and speed are thinking along the lines of professional body building. Most of those guys are on steroids so there muscle growth is unnatural and can inhibit flexibility and speed. Another thing to think about is body builders are obsessed with exercises that isolate muscles groups due to the nature of their business.

If you are going to lift weights do research and find a method that suits your needs. A source of information I recommend are books by Pavel Tsatsouline. His books and products are on the web site www.dragondoor.com. This web site has a great forum where you can ask questions, Pavel and other members will take the time to answer them for you. Just to point out Pavel is a slim bodied person who has been lifting weights for years and is extremely flexible. The publisher of Dragondoor Publications, John Du Cane, is a well accomplished chi gong practitioner so you will also see many great chi gong products on the site.

Bob Two, I don't think William quite answered your question. By the way, do you find flossing with shoe laces after chewing your feet off helpful to the maintenance of dental hygiene (yours)?

Pavel Tsatsouline is an interesting guy. He is definitely in shape and moves well. Vladimir Vasiliev is another Russian who is flexible and moves well, in the context of his martial art. Some of Vasiliev's moves remind me of Chen style taijiquan.

William, you might want to check out (if you haven't already)Matt Furey's ideas on bodyweight conditioning (his website is on the Links page here). Tim subscribes to some of those ideas. It's good stuff. Furey also likes some of the "old-time" religion about weightlifting.
("Farmer's Walk," etc.).

B. Bell, I am familiar with Matt Furey's ideas on body weight exercising. I purchased his book "Combat Conditioning" some time ago and it is filled with great exercises for strength and flexibility. My work out routine consists of a combination of weight lifting and body weight exercises. I ordered Combat Conditioning directly from Matt Furey and had a chance to speak with him. I asked him what was his opinion of body weight exercises obstructing chi and he answered by saying whoever beliefs this does not know what they are talking about and they say these things because of their own lack of strength. He also said if anything having a strong body will help the flow of chi. I just want to point out I am paraphrasing what Matt said, his comments were more intense. Matt Furey's books and video tape set can be purchased from www.dragondoor.com.

I have a friend who studies Baqua under a great Basqua teacher who is in his mid thirties. My friends teacher has practiced Baqua most of his life and his focus has always been on the fighting aspect of the arts. This teacher is also knowledgeable in Hsing I, and Tai Chi but his favorite art is Baqua. I once asked him about weight training and he replied I see nothing wrong with it, Bruce Lee lifted weights. He also said some of the internal teachers do not fight or practice sparring so they come up with some of most outlandish chi theories but never have to prove the strength of their own chi through fighting. Another good point he made was it is all about your ability to fight with your techniques if you have to and everything else is intellectual masturbation. This Baqua teacher has a reputation of being a fighter and has fought many who train in internal systems and other martial arts systems. He is well respected in the Kung Fu circles in New York and is known as someone who teaches people how to fight effectively with the internal systems. His favorite line is, "instead of talk let the palms speak."

William,

Gee William I wonder who you are talking about!!!

Another very famous Pa Qua teacher(much better than who you speak of)states that most martial artists cannot effieciently deploy and use what strength they already have.

This real master also teaches overload/resistance in two man technique practice.The best of both worlds.Unknowing types may label this training as non realistic when in fact other qualities are being developed.In this particular case that being overload and resistance training all in the context of functional and "task specific"-a Tim phrase.

Sorry for the obnoxious attitude.Your feigned attempt at passing off info was nothing more than a cheap promotion effort(MO).

"Instead of talk let the palm speak?!"

That's classic...ha ha ha...only in New York could they come up with something that corny.

If your 'palms spoke' they'd only tell us how many times you practiced the 'jerked monkey' technique.

Hey Meynard, You got something for me???

"There's only one Betty, Big Balled Betty!"

It will go through Tim approval next week. Then I will send it to you.

A tidbit.Also sounds like a plug for the Hsing-I dragon form.

www.qx.net/hpma/strengthvspower.htm

Explosive and complex training is a very controversial area of training.For the other side of the story.

www.i-a-r-t.com/articles/mannieexplosion.html

Cool Hand Luke,

You stated, "Sorry for the obnoxious attitude.Your feigned attempt at passing off info was nothing more than a cheap promotion effort(MO)"

What are you talking about? For the record I am promoting no one but only expressing my views. Do you have a problem with people who do not express the same opinions as you? The world is full with people who are individuals and can think for themsels. My background includes boxing, muy thai, wrestling, judo and other types of grappling so my perspective is very much fighting oriented. The concepts I embrase are geared towards what is going to make me a better fighter. I am also a member of a fight team in NYC who participates in San Shou, Muy Thai, grappling and MMA which means my focus better be on what works or I may find myself face down on the canvas.

The phrase "instead of talk, let the palms speak" just means instead of wasting time with meaningless talk, fight and see if you are effectively able to utilize your techniques. To the person that said only in New York can they come up with something this corny, it is also very easy to hide behind a keyboard without anyone knowing who you are and knowing if can fight. Are you one of those people who doesn't spar or fight because your techniques are too deadly?

William,

As I previously stated sorry for the obnoxious attitude.And also apologies for apparently misrepresenting your intentions.Your statements sounded oh so familiar(the long flowing robes of another came to mind).However I am just an internet clown so do not mind me!!!

William:
Believe me, Meynard doesn't hide behind the keyboard. Click on Meynard's name on the post to discover who he is (profile) and come on down to the academy to find out if he lives up to his credentials.