I'm taking up Hsing I and Pa Kua, but in my 'homework' I've seen a lot of 'internal' guys poo-pooing weight lifting. Why? More muscle, more strength. More strength, more power behind the punch. Stronger legs, stronger stance, right?

Tim or anybody else with some thoughts? I'd hate to have to give up on weightlifting entirely.

Ken

Hi Ken,
I've had extremely competent teachers of the Internal martial arts in China tell me that lifting weights was bad for your martial development, and five minutes later want me to swing a huge heavy staff around.
An interesting question for those who caution against weight lifting is this: where does one draw the line? If it somehow detrimental to lift weights, is it also detrimental to lift traditional Internal Arts weapons, many of which are quite heavy? Or how about any other heavy object (interesting thought since the founder of Yang Tai Ji Quan, Yang Lu Chan, known as "Yang without Enemy" for his martial prowess, delivered coal for a living and was famous for his arm strength). Although this kind of thinking may come in handy sometimes (sorry Honey, I can't help you carry in the groceries, my Tai Ji teacher said it will ruin my Qi), there really is no logic behind it.
What one needs to do is look at the principle of strength and how to develop it. If you want to fight, you need at least a basic level of strength (and more certainly won't hurt). It is the underlying principles of strength training that should apply to any and all methods of strength training, not the shortsighted view that one method is somehow "good" while another method is "bad." Internal arts are based on sensitivity and body control. For this reason, a great amount of brute strength without a commensurate amount of control may not help much in a fight, especially with a trained opponent. For this reason, the Internal arts developed strength training practices which increased functional strength concurrently with flexibility, sensitivity and a high degree of control. This type of training produces functional strength which is directly applicable to the techniques of the chosen art (much like gymnastics, most gymnasts don't lift weights, but they spend a lot of time on strength training exercises which produce functional strength directly applicable to gymnastics. And gymnasts may not have the brute strength of a power lifter, but they certainly are STRONG).
Although I don't think that weight lifting is necessary to developing a high level of skill in the Internal martial arts (as long as the student is spending adequate time on the power training practices of their chosen art),if you lift weights according to the principles of the Internal martial arts, that is, so that the strength you develop will be functional for your chosen art, what's the problem with lifting?

Ken,

I can help you with this one. I too questioned my teacher about this when I was begining my internal martial arts training. I was stubborn
about changing my preferences, but now that I'm older I can more clearly see what my teacher was telling me. It breaks down to these simple facts:

1. While Waifs may be attractive, they tend
to have deep emotional problems and a
proclivity to pull you into their state of
distress much like a drowning person might
pull you under while struggling for air.

2. Waifs are usually conceited and demand
constant praise which can drain a mate.
And some (most) of them will flirt and
try to woo other men just to boost their
egos.

3. Waifs hip bones are unusually pointy and
sharp making copulation a painful event
for a mate. Their hips are also narrow
making childbirth problematic.

4. Waifs generally forget about returning
oral favors to the mate they just berated
into taking care of their needs.

5. Waifs look best when dressed in expensive
clothes and will stop at nothing to get them.

6. Waifs bones break easily due to malnutrition
making 'rough love' an impossibility.

So, trust the advice of the ancient master, avoid
picking up waifs; find yourself a hearty woman.

Good luck with your training,
Bob #2

Bob #2

Ken was talking about picking up weights not waifs. Obviously no super strength required to pick up the malnourished brittle boned babes your talking about. Albeit your advice is quite sound!

Oh.

My teachers English wasn't great.
For the first couple of years I studied with
him I thought I was supposed to be developing
my 'cheese'.

Alls well that ends well though, my wife may
have been a heifer but she was one helluva cook.

Ken,
I have lots of weigthlifting experience in my background and I can tell you that I gave it all up to pursue my studies of bagua/xingyi. Why? Because I found the two methods to be incompatible. Especially for the upper body. Weightliting usually requires that you tense the muscle in order to get results.

Bagua/xingyi/taiji does the opposite. The muscles are relaxed to a great extent and the structure is used to generate power. The time you spend tensing the muscles will clash with the time you spend trying to relax them.

While heavy weapons are used in the neijia, to my knowledge they are only used after you have built structure into the body and are never "muscled" around.

However, I think using weights for the legs may be a good idea. A friend of mine once told me that becasue of my weight training my upper torso made me "top heavy". This made push hands difficult for me as it was easy to off balance me.

Since then I only do the power exercises from bagua/xingyi and I'm seeing my root develop a little bit (finally!) and my power is transferring to my legs where it should be. Also, my chronically stiff shoulders are starting to soften now that I don't do so many pushups.
Anyway, take all this with a grain of salt (I'm still a beginner too) and good luck in training.

To Ken,
Points to ponder:
- Strength is great; flexible strength is better (I believe that I once read an ad by Dolf Lundgren -- that in-shape actor of "Rocky # whatever" fame -- claiming that he trains for flexible strength). Note that Dave C's earlier training was of a type that left him stiff (& probably decreased his range of motion).
- Takamatsu [a famous Japanese martial artist (who was crossed trained in many Japanese & Chinese martial arts -- he wasn't called "Mongolian Tiger" by his Chinese friends for nothing)]: he, as a youngster carried heavy loads of water uphill every morning (& he probably had to pour out the containers as well as fill them); one of my other instructors who is quite competent used to lay tile for a living (which similarly required him to keep his balance while walking up stairs with heavy loads of tile/grout or cement -- and lifting & pouring out the grout or cement among other duties) -- & like Tim, he hits HARD (even though he only weighs between 145 & 155 lbs. -- he uses his legs when he strikes with his hand & it's noticeable). These are examples (I believe) of useful weight lifting (training of legs & whole-body movement as Dave C. may be suggesting).
- Tim talks about a balance in class:
(1) You don't want to train to be strong but limited in your range of motion (as that makes you unable to apply your strength at angles that might otherwise benefit you).
(2) You don't want to train to be flexible but weak (as that makes you vulnerable like a baby).
(3) YOU DO WANT to train to be strong over a wide range of angles [as this is your ideal goal for usable strength (your best-case senario) -- it's what helps to make one very formidable in a fight; excellent neuro-muscular transmission & tactical skill being the other prime factors of a formidable fighter]. {:o)

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the feedback.

I was looking at sticking with a basic sort of weight routine, with the primary focus being the 'compound movement' types of free weight exercises (squat, deadlift, etc.). The 'approach' I like best (so far) is what Stuart McRobert advocates (author of "Brawn"). My goal is NOT to squat 3-400 lbs., it is just to improve my overall strength (and maintain what I build), without inhibiting my MA training.

Not to put you on the spot ;-), but could you suggest some exercises that would be good to look at, or ones to stay away from?

Since it sounds like no two Hsing I or Pa Kua groups are alike, here's the group (lineage?) I'm with:

Hsing I - Tang Shou Tao (Dr. Vince Black)
Pa Kua - Li Tzi Ming (Dr. Black)
- Gao style (Dr. Black)

What do ya think?

Ken

Hi Bob #2:

You go for the big booty? You're a sick man, Bob #2, and don't think I don't appreciate it!!
--------------------------------

Hi Dave C.:

I hear ya. As I said in my response to Tim, I'm looking at staying with a routine that is basic, but with a distinct emphasis on 'lower body' exercises (e.g. deadlifts & squats).

Your point about upper body strength is well taken, what do you think about using a medicine ball for upper body? Have you had any experience with that?
---------------------------------

Hi Mike:

I would agree with you about 'flexible strength'. Based on my limited understanding, I figure I'll just keep stretching after my workouts to maintain/improve flexibility, would that have the same effect do you think?

Thanks guys.

Ken

P.S. Thanks to Bob for correcting "Bob #2". For a minute there, I was going to ask Bob #2 to share some of what he was smokin' with the rest of us!

Mike pretty much summed up my philosophy on power development. I advocate a balance of strength and flexibility, so that you are strong throughout your full range of motion (obviously, you will be stronger in certain ranges than others). My personal preference is bodyweight exercises, without the use of weights. If you lift, compound movements are the way to go in my opinion. Isolation exercises tend not to develop whole body, functional strength. Although I think that developing strength and flexibility concurrently (with the same exercises)is better for the type of functional strength used in martial arts, lifting then stretching will be beneficial. It is important to remain as relaxed as possible when applying the techniques of the Internal, but, in the real world, the guy you are fighting may not realize this and will put you into compromising positions in which you have no choice but to use strength to escape or avoid injury. Having a reserve of strength and flexibility may save your bones and joints, if not your life.

No Ken,

I'm not interested in your big bootie, but thanks
for the offer.

Roberto Numero Dos

Yo Roberto Numero Dos,

Not hardly bub...you were talkin' about women, I was talkin' about women.

You can keep the fat ones, I'll take the rest, thanks.

Ken #1

The bigger the cushion, the deeper the pushin'.
The wider the waist-band, the better the quicksand.

You've got yourself a deal, buddy!

Is BOb#2 the same as Bob#2 or his smelly older brother?

Cyrano, You've got the nose, sniff out the difference.

Ken,
From my limited experience I think your routine doesn't sound so bad. As long as you're staying away from alot of bicep curls and things like that you should be okay.

I don't have much experience with the medicine ball but from what little I know it might be okay. I know that the chen stylists use balls to train chan si jing and Fu Zhen Song also used a ball in his bagua.

Two points:
1. I think Mr. Black's Gao style is a mix of the Tianjin and Taiwan branch so I don't know if he has the tian gang exercises. If he does, you may want to look at spending a lot of quality time on them. They build a lot of power, especially in the waist and legs.
2. I recommend spending so time strenghtening your lower back (which dead lifts obviously do very well). I think bagua is very demanding on your lower back and I don't get injured as much since I started strengthening that area.

Ken,
Theoretically lifting & stretching can work. Doing so would be training for strength without flexibility followed by training for flexibility without strength (so as Tim just mentioned, you'd have to ensure that you cover the same ground, so to speak). However weight TRAINING can be done in a way that stretches during the exercises -- but you won't be able to use very heavy weights (esp. at first). The idea would be to use a full range of motion (short of dangerous ranges where you might risk dislocating a joint). But this is just like what Tim described above (using the weight bar alone as if it were a "heavy spear," or with a light weight plate at one end as if it were a "hammer" -- at least to start).
NOTE: I'm no expert on the matter (far from it). I first heard of the concept of flexible strength about 3, 4 or 5 years ago (from Tim). Since then I've paid attention to a few martial exercises from around the world (China, Japan, the US & "Persia" -- exercises that I THINK approximate Tim's concept of training for flexible strength. Basically, the idea is to move a light weight (that is a weight "light" in comparison to weight-LIFTING poundages) & to move the weight over a wide range of (flowing) motion (usually it isn't a typical up-down-up-down motion -- but in some exercises it is; often it's more like a down-&-around-to-the-other-side-&-up motion that repeats alternately).
Without knowing, I'd venture to GUESS that the Vikings of old -- many of whom were known as big, powerful men -- spent more time swinging their large, heavy swords, axes, battle hammers, spears, & shields in training, than they did lifting, say, heavy rocks (I haven't seen any evidence of "ancient Viking barbells". They did lift very heavy lumber & they rowed a lot: BOTH AS A TEAM (team rowing = light-to-moderate resistance over a wide range of motion, repeated many times, but usu. not to total exhaustion). They were known as skilled warriors which may indicate that they had flexible strength & good stamina. However, in fighting they conserved energy by swinging those heavy weapons only when it counted (likewise train, but don't WEAR yourself out -- else you make yourself helpless). Note: their weapons didn't weigh 300, 400, or 500+ pounds either!
Note that US military bayonet training & basic shoulder-weapons exercises use weapons that weigh between 6 & 30 pounds (so this may be a good starting point; you can work up from there; but the idea is to never sacrifice a safe, sensible, wide range of motion in favor of lifting a heavier weight -- only increase when you can maintain the same wide range with a heavier poundage, else you'll eventually be weight LIFTING again).
You'll get an idea of flexible strength training for your legs by ordering exercise tapes (such as "Scientific Stretching" -- or a judo exercise tape for your torso) from Stadion Publishing in Connecticut: it's eastern-European sports training know how. Tim's not-yet-released new book (project) will most likely cover this type of training (as do two books on Chinese martial training that I've already seen published in English: one on Chinese Fast Wrestling, & to a lesser extent -- weight-wise -- one on Xing-Yi Nei Gong). Oh, TRAIN CAREFULLY -- chance for injury is great if the weight's too heavy. {)

P.S.: I REALLY FEEL Lo's (& Tim's) drilling-like Xing-Yi (non-weight) exercise in my lower back BIG TIME! If you think about it, using your own body weight in exercise, or at least a portion of it, is like using a light weight (unless you're very, very heavy). Also, I AGREE WITH TIM (from experience I know that): EITHER STRENGTH OR FLEXIBILITY ALONE CAN "SAVE" ONE AT TIMES -- so imagine having flexible strength...hmm.

Men's Health magazine October 2000 (widely available in the United States) has an interesting article. The article is on page 142 titled You have balanced strength. It starts out with Most men overdo pushing exercises like bench presses and squats, so it's rare to find a man with balanced muscular strength. It goes on to describe what balanced strength is and how to attain it.

Hi,

I am new to this board. I am a practicioner of "internal martial arts". I don't lift weights, but wanted to get some feedback on the topic.

My thoughts as to why one should not lift weights and practice one of the three primary "internal" arts is this: When one uses fa jing the joints need to be very relaxed to get the power to come out properly. I believe lifting weights, without tremendous time spent stretching, hinders the ability to fa jing. Secondly, I believe lifting weights may condition one to resist against incoming force rather than yield to it.

When I say weightlifting I'm referring to 2-3 sessions a week, up to 12 reps per exercise, for 3 sets. I do condone abdominal work, light weight lifting for the legs, and calisthenics.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you.

I disagree.

The old masters- the true bad asses, lived rugged
lives of farming and the good old "carry a months supply of rice home on your shoulders" existence. Joe, the computer programmer who sits behind his desk all day and then does 2 hours of IMA each night is not getting the same physical workout as the past masters had.

Done correctly, weight training can add mass which would greatly increase fa jing possibilities. (stretching well before and after weight training is very important).

It certainly is possible to gain muscle and strength without weight training (Tim is well muscled and flexible- and can make himself weight much more than his 160lbs... and he does no weight training).... but I do not think weight
training is necessarily 'bad' in relation to IMA.