Question about Kuzushi in relation to IMA throwing

Tim's Discussion Board: Concepts : Question about Kuzushi in relation to IMA throwing
   By Craig on Friday, March 16, 2007 - 04:12 pm: Edit Post

This question is directed towards Tim and anyone else who would care to comment.

I remember that Kit Leblanc wrote a great review covering the seminar in Seattle with Tim, and something that was metioned was particularly interesting to me.

Kit touched on the principals and tactics Tim was discribing in regards to entering, breaking the persons structure and throwing to the opponent's dead angles - and breaking the person's structure as oppose to using Kuzushi (off balancing) to complete the throw.

I guess my questions are not very specific, but more about how they differ. I would be greatful if anyone could elaberate on the differences between these ideas that Kit touched on. Maybe even an example of say, the differences in doing O Goshi with the 2 different methods, or some other major basic throw - would really help my understanding.

Thanks,
Craig


   By Mark Hatfield on Friday, March 16, 2007 - 11:09 pm: Edit Post

This makes me very curious. I know nothing of throwing. It sounds like 'breaking the persons' structure' is 'off balancing'. Are you sure this is not just diferent ways to describe the same thing. Good question.


   By Shane on Friday, March 16, 2007 - 11:52 pm: Edit Post

You can "break someone's structure" while they retain their 'balance' making the throw a bit of a suprise for them.

It is also possible to be 'off balanced' while maintaining your own structure.

An example of both might be: walking down some stairs and missing a step/stair. You're off balance for a second- but if you keep your structure, you'll recover and not fall.

If you let your structure 'break' in the same instant when you're off-balance... you going to fall... or scramble to regain your footing.

I hope that make sense


   By Craig on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 12:59 am: Edit Post

Thanks, Shane. Your example's make complete sense.


   By Craig on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 01:24 am: Edit Post

Mark, I think Shane is expressing what I was trying to ask much clearer.


   By robert on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 10:11 pm: Edit Post

When you break an opponents structure, that means he has no power, this is usually done by applying pressure at the right time to neutralize his force. A dead angle is an angle that you can direct an opponent to defeat his balance, mainly by pushing pulling or twisting his centerline from its balancepoint.
when you apply kazushi, you will notice that naturally you are already applying the dead angle principal.


to defend against these types of attacks you need to move your feet, thats why footwork is so important.


   By Tim on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 10:10 pm: Edit Post

Craig,

Shane summed up the difference well.

If I break your balance, you will fall if you don't right your self immediately. So the throw must follow immediately after the off balancing, before the opponent rights himself.

If I break your posture you will not necessarily be off balance (for example, if I misalign your hips and shoulders), but you will be in a weakened position and more easily taken down. Since an opponent with broken posture will often not realize that his structure is compromised, he will not react immediatly to right himself as when off balanced, and I will have more time and more surprise on my side when I execute the throw.


   By Craig on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 12:09 am: Edit Post

Thanks, Tim - your's and Shane's explainations really cleared my confusion up. As I have been mostly focusing on applying Kazushi in Judo, it is very interesting for me to hear about this other way of working - I will try to play with this in practice.


   By Kit Leblanc on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 04:28 pm: Edit Post

Remember kuzushi literally means "break."

I can't add anything more to what Tim said, though I think I would describe the manner in which you fall feels a little different, too. Not so much with the hip throws, but some of the others had more of a sense of being twisted into the ground where you stand, rather than a "projection" if that makes sense.


   By Craig on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 10:14 pm: Edit Post

Thasnk, Kit - I think I get your drift.


   By robert on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 02:06 pm: Edit Post

http://www.judoinfo.com/video/waza/67.avi

uki otoshi utilizes kuzushi, now im pretty sure on this one.


   By Jason M. Struck on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 11:19 am: Edit Post

a judo equivalent of 'breaking structure' might be the dominance of something like sleeve-back grip. However it is a poor equivalent in that typically someone at the mercy of a sleeve-back grip is very well aware of how far there shoulders/hips are out of alignment, and will suffer the same panic that any individual would when tottering off-balance, if they have any sense of proprioception.


   By Backarcher on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 10:09 pm: Edit Post

Great thread!


   By Craig on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 12:54 am: Edit Post

Hi Jason,

Could you discribe what the sleeve-back girp is? I don't know that terminology and I'm not sure if i'm picturing what you are discribing correctly.

Thanks,
Craig


   By Kit Leblanc on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 12:58 am: Edit Post

Some interesting studies in breaking structure and breaking balance kuzushi:

Kano doing Kito-ryu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3r59hDG3Vw&mode=related&search=

Kano throwing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvn6Tyft0yQ&mode=related&search=

Kano doing Ju-no-Kata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDnx2nsHetQ&mode=related&search=

Mifune:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUne9Xg55og&NR


   By Kit Leblanc on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 01:09 am: Edit Post

And Kimura showing his osoto gari:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw&mode=related&search=


   By Kit Leblanc on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 01:34 am: Edit Post

Here's another clip with some cool throws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnicz3JYtJg


   By Kit Leblanc on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 01:38 am: Edit Post

Deleted double post


   By Tim on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 04:08 am: Edit Post

Thanks Kit,

I've never seen the Ju-no-Kata done live before, it is absolutely phenomenal.


   By Craig on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 12:34 pm: Edit Post

Thanks for the clips Kit.


   By Kit Leblanc on Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 02:48 pm: Edit Post

Trying to find a good on-line presentation of Itsutsu no Kata, which is another very "theoretical" one that shows the "fundamental energies" of judo and has some interest in the kuzushi department. One kata starts looking very similar to the "two birds" thing that they do in Mongolian wrestling. Anyway, Mifune does it on the full video - the one that has the groundwork and the other judo kata on it.

Interesting stuff.


   By Jason M. Struck on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 04:13 pm: Edit Post

The sleeve-back is comparable to a Russian Two on One, where instead of a biceps grip, your lead arm goes all the way over and reaches for the lat, arm pit or mid back of the gi.

:

http://www.sudjudo.free.fr/jud%20pujaut/equipe2003/franck%203div%20220pix.jpg

I this is for right on right. As a lefty, I do this from the outside, hence my R 2n1 comparison.


   By Craig on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 06:01 pm: Edit Post

Thanks, Jason.


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