I have noticed in observing martial arts over the years that many times a student that wishes to pursue the fighting end comes to find a seperation between the training for fighting and the "martial arts" that originally inspired the study in the first place.

As opposed to the devout fighter who will do anything and everything possible to improve their fighting skills,the student who was initially interested in fighting,philosophy,health ect,are often told that if they really want to learn how to fight they will have to undergo seperate training.Many times this entails being sent to different schools to learn or be in a "fighting school".An example would be the tai chi student who is sent to learn some boxing.

This is all fine and well IMO,and even neccesary,and in harmony with the theory of specficity that pretty much states that one has to replicate as closely as possible that which they are engaging in.This theory has given rise to the new rage in sports and fitness "fuctional training".

The problem I see in many cases is the seperation of the "Art" from the fighting leaving a student feeling disconnected from that which they originally endeavored to study.A schism of sorts.So in that sense a student is lucky when they can find an instructor who offers the whole package,although in the case of fighting a little specialized study is probably always a good idea.

Just as bad are the schools which offer prearranged applications and pass this off as the devoloping of fighting ability ,never really teaching or letting the students expierence the realities of fighting.

Which brings me to a question.What is the relationship today of instructor and fighter in the current martial arts world,or to be more specific does a relationship commonly exist between a student and his instructor in a fighting setting.And to be even more specific does this exist on any level in schools that are teaching internal styles?I believe that deep down in many instances a fighter is a very insecure sort,and as Howard Cosell once succinctly stated tormented by a fear of failure.
A fighter who is really laying it on the line benefits from this strong Instructor/fighter relationship,someone who is going to be in their corner good, bad or indifferent,and not demean when the result of the fighter does not match what the instructor may have hoped for.

In spending some time with a Sam Boardman he impressed this upon me deeply.Sam,s son Larry defeated 2 world champions in the 1950,s in non title fights.Sam trained and spent time with the likes of Carmen Basillio,Jake LaMotta,Angello Dundee among others.His son Larry retired Sandy Sadler.Sadler never again fought after that fight.They purposely carried and punished Sadler for 15 rounds.The reason?As Sam told me Sadler ruined many a young boxers career with the laces of his gloves.So it was some retribution in the boxing way, 1950,s style.

He always impressed upon this relationship between trainer and fighter.Do people believe this type of relationships exist today between martial arts instructors and their students who are pursuing the fighting end?

Yes.

Mike?

I'm With You, Not Illuminated Yet,
I'm not so sure I understood the question(s). If the question is: Do students & instructors have a relationship?, then the answer is of course (a student-instructor relationship for starters). Some students become friends with their instructor(s), some don't. Some instructors take a personal interest in their students -- even outside of class -- while others don't. Some instructors back their students right or wrong, some will punish a stundent if he or she is wrong. Martial-arts study is like any other part of life (people are people).
As for separate training: exploring other arts can be helpful, but if your instructor is a fighter & a teacher -- and you can learn from your instructor -- then there's no reason for you to leave your instructor "to learn how to fight." You may someday leave (temporarily or permanently) to "learn how to fight another way" (as there are many ways to skin a cat).

Bob #2,

What fighter/instructor relationship is happening currently in martial arts?Because I haven,t seen it.Tell me where and I would like to investigate.Pushing hand competetions are meaningless to me.All I,m seeing in IMA is students and instructors practicing pre arranged type sparring only.With all the no holds barred matches these days has there been one fighter to come out of an internal system and have sustained success?Where are all the Chen stylists or the vaunted Hsing I men?Who was the last Pa Qua practicioner to step into the ring with the likes of a Shamrock or someone similar?I do not think they exist.Why?I do not know.Enlighten me Bob.I have my suspicions.I think it would shine some light on the viability on some of these systems as fighting arts,and even more so on the current crop of practicioners.I am painting with a broad brush I realize.The internal guys go to their own little shelterd competetions for the most part.When was the last time a fighter emerged in a nationally renowned full contact competetion from say The Tang Shou gang,or from Park,s Pa Qua or from any of the hundred or so internal martial arts schools.I believe that IMA as a group have been vastly overated as fighting systems.With all the glory,money and fame to be gained from winning one of these big name full contact competetions,why hasn,t ONE of the big names in internal martial arts world stepped up and claimed victory in one of these tournaments against the BJJ fighters all the way down to the street fighters?Why hasn,t a Park or a BKF OR A Luo or a Vince Black or anyone?I am not trying to cast asspirations on these respected practicioners above either.I just do not see it.If one wants to read how bad a Li Cun Yi or a Shang Yun Hsiang or any of the greats was from the past fine.But it aint happening in todays world.

GI,

Broad brush- hell, you're questions are more like a paint gun- firing everywhere at once.
(I don't have time to reply to everything at the moment- I'll be able to dissect and answer your inquisa-volley later tonight).

Where?- I know that in Tim's school (Garden Grove, California) sparring is a daily event. Some students spar Vale-Tudo style- with Tim or with each other. I've seen people go at it
pretty hard- and I've laughed with students who
tell me how Tim or one of his better students knocked them out. It's all part of the learning process if the student has a desire to take it that far.

Regarding an IMO fighter getting recognition- BJJ is considered internal art- move with rather than against force. It is a well known fact that Rickson Graicie is one of the best fighters in the world.

I agree with you that it would be great to see a great Hsing Yi or BaGua stylist in one of the glorified UFC type of events. However, I don't watch much TV, and I don't follow the fight circuit- for all I know they're out there and I just haven't seen them yet. It would be great to see the Mike Tyson of IMO- but I haven't been looking. I did see little Royce Gracie win a couple of UFCs fighting much larger fighters who would've killed him if he tried to duke it out with them. And I did see a Bagua stylist win his weight division in another full contact tournament out of Russia a year ago. I know that Tim was undefeated for sometime in full contact open class fights in Taiwan not too long ago (mainly using Hsing Yi).

I don't mind casting aspersions: Park is a puss- as I understand it, he doesn't teach fighting. He teaches forms and some techniques- doesn't let students spar.. he's a fruad.

Excuse me, but what's a fruad. Do you mean fraud? Bob #2, don't you think that's a little harsh? If that is the path Park chooses that does not make him a fraud. I don't know the man, so I can't say yea or ney, but I do think he has a right to teach as he chooses. It's up to the student to research and decide what style, teacher, and method of martial training they wish to follow. Not all student's of IMA or external are going to be fighters. There are a great many, I dare say the vast majority that are more interested in playing at it than the real deal. That's there right! No sense trying to force a square peg into a round hole. I have to agree that the majority of IMA practitioners are more interested in moving chi than fighting. This does not take away from the skill and power of those that are fighters. It simply makes them a minority. The few, the proud, the fighters! We still need the others, else there would be no fans. In all styles of martial art as well as other branches of life you will find doers and talkers. That's just the way it is! Beside this if they help pay the rent on the training hall that helps the fighters in the long run.

Regards
Bob

Harsh is my middle name.

He has no right to teach as he chooses, he has only the right to teach the way I tell him to.

I would think that most first rate Internal practitioners are living and practicing in third world countries where living standards and everyday concerns take precedence over fighting in a 1st world countries tournaments.
Tim has told me stories and shown me videos of the great Xing Yi fighter Liang Ke Quan. He lives in some one room shack in Mainland China with no heating and plumbing. Do you think this true lifetime battlefield hardened fighter has the means to travel and participate in what is essentially tournaments that 1st world countries have the time and means to show interest in?
Tim has told me in the past that he would have liked to participate in UFC type tournaments but he was concerned for his wife if something did happen to him. There is a lot more than meets the eye.

Ugh. Hasn't this whole thing been gone over (and over and over) in other forums? Neither side will ever agree, so why keep on? Anyway, since I'm a current student of Luo's and my feathers are easily ruffled, I can't resist responding to GI's mention of him. HE DID. In his day, he and his classmates entered lots of tournaments and won. But at that time, young men were not allowed to leave Taiwan--at all. So they entered Taiwanese tournaments, not American. Now he is a teacher, not a tournament fighter. He's not interested in quitting his full-time day job or blowing off his students to go back into tournament training just to prove himself and his art to those in doubt. I know for a fact that he spends time every day not only practicing but also researching bagua, the other internal MA, body mechanics, etc. to increase the *depth* of his art. His goals are different now from when he was in his 20's. But I don't think anyone who has seen him in action would say he is no longer a first-rate fighter. He's already proved himself. Now his art speaks for itself. Come to a seminar and see for yourself. Or visit his class and you'll see a teacher/students relationship regarding fighting. If you base legitimacy on fighting in those TV tournaments alone, you're missing a lot of the picture. Just my humble opinion, dear sweet GI.

BTW, I wonder why you bring this up on Tim's board, since Tim is obviously very effective at winning tournaments with internal MA.

There, now I don't have to bother answering the rest of G.I.'s questions because Beth and Not Illumi said it first. What a relief.

I will say this: if all you've found in IMO is prearranged sparring- then you are looking in the wrong places. Keep trying You'll find the real thing at some IMO schools. I only had to check out two schools before finding the real deal at Shen Wu. Maybe in the U.S. it's rare- but that's why it is so great when you find it.

Beth,
"Anyway, since I'm a current student of Luo's and my feathers are easily ruffled".
You continue to come to Luo's defense. Is this more than a student standing up for a teacher? What fighter/instructor relationship is happening

To All,

The GI above is not the original poster.Beth these forums make it easy for intentions to become mis construed{spelling?}.Have no doubt that I personally have the utmost respect for both Tim AND Luo as fighters,teachers and as men who are propagating a truly great art.And yes family is a valid reason for not entering these full contact events.By the way I realize my point has been foggy all the way through this thread.Apologies.As far as Luo he is the real deal.Same goes for Tim.

My main point which I failed thus far to make is that being martially profiecent is a far cry from preparing and winning a battle against an opponent who is training just as serious as you are.

Take Liang Ke Quan for example.No doubt he was and is a badass.He did however make a comment in a mag in which he stated that all real fights are over in a matter of seconds.Sometimes yes sometimes no.Against a fully prepared opponent this most likely is not the case.It leaves me with the suspicion that many in IMArtrs are confusing competetions with a self defense encounter.

I bring up thr trainer/fighter relationship because frankly I feel that most in IMA circles do not have the vaguest clue as how to bring a fighter along to perform at maximum peak potential and performance.This is at least as important as technique,and IMO is vastly overlooked aspect of developing a fighter.As stated above many fighters have fragile egos and wrong steps can mentally destroy a fighter.What to eat, volume of training,when to spar and not spar and how much,when to use overload and underload training,and many more issues, all of these issues are critical for the highly trained and can make the difference between winning and losing.And the difference in a fighter having a positive or mentally destructive expierence.

In giving one odd example of this aspect of the process,Sam Boardman told me of Ron Lyle who he was training for a time.He said that a heavyweight should not have sex for at least 6 weeks prior to a fight,and for a lighter weight 3 to 4 weeks.Apparently Lyle took this advice to the extreme and did not have sex for 10 WEEKS!OR ANYTHING ELSE.He became surly beyond reason and he began seriously hurting sparring partners,thus compromising his ability to prepare,so in a nutshell AND in Sams words he had Lyle " go get some tail".Anyway I feel there is a very neglected and overlooked aspect to the whole issue of fighting,an area that expierence is of tremendoous value.Men like Angello Dundee.Freddie Brown,Ray Arcel these were not great fighters they were however great trainers of fighters

Great Illum, thanks for clarification and an interesting post.

Fake GI, I was writing as a respectful student. In any martial arts environment, I am a student only. In personal life, as you implied with such irritating coyness, I do in fact have a relationship with Luo that is long-term and not at all secret in the world of real, face-to-face humanity. Here online I identify myself only as a student not only because it is an objective fact but also because it allows me to voice my own thoughts and ideas without others prejudging me and allows others to correct me or argue with me without feeling weird about it. Some people can be a little patronizing to women in martial arts, but you may as well just forget about it if you're known as "the girlfriend."

By the way, my "fighter/instructor relationship" is exactly the same as any other student's. My two kinds of relationships are very highly compartmentalized. The things I have written on this board could have been written by any of his students. Dave C. has strongly defended Luo here several times; if he (or anyone with a male username) had jumped in, you wouldn't have questioned his motives, am I correct?

Anyway, even though I am not a moron and certainly not "blinded by love" when it comes to martial arts, I doubt my views will be taken seriously again here. So I considered not replying to you at all, but I didn't want your leering innuendo to stand.

(BTW, you may be right that my personal respect and affection makes me too quick on the trigger where Luo is concerned, and I guess that's only natural. Nonetheless, maybe the next time I'm tempted to post online, I'll go do 200 tiengan instead. More productive...)

I could tell because only a girlfriend would be so ruffled so quickly all the time.

Beth,

Your input on this board is appreciated and respected regardless of your personal relationship with Luo. Unfortunately we get the occasional "knucklehead" (Tim's term). Don't let them dissuade you from posting. I'm sure plenty of the guys here feel the same way I do about this. It's nice to hear from a woman's point of view. Albeit training instead of posting would certainly be more productive.

Regards
Bob

The reason that woman are patronized in Martial arts is because they stink. I have known Men police officers that tell stories of rescuing female police officers. I wouldn't trust a female firefighter to rescue me, a Jessie Ventura type, from a second story building if I was passed out. The standard is always lowered for women. This is all P.C. crap that has been foisted on us. Where are they in the U.F.C. against men?

Police officers and fire fighters aren't martial artists. Bagua is a useful martial art for women because it can level the playing field a little bit. p.s.--There are a lot of crappy men martial artists too. (But nobody says, "Oh, his stick-hands sucks because he's a man and he's not sensitive enough.) Damn, now I have to shut up and go do tiengan. Stop baiting me! I can't resist it...

Me again. I honestly can't help myself today.

About men v. women in tournament fights (brought up by anonymous):

Does anyone remember several months ago, a woman boxer tried to get a match scheduled against a man. I was really surprised by how much press it got, and she couldn't get any takers except some dork she could have beat in her sleep. When she won, there was no glory in it, because it wasn't a fair match. Why couldn't she get a male boxer of the same skill level to fight against her? I think probably there were 2 reasons: (1) the men knew that if they won, they'd be scorned for beating a woman, but if they lost, they be scorned for losing to woman; and (2) they didn't even consider it because they saw it as a publicity stunt or saw her as an unworthy opponent. So now she's back to fighting in woman v. woman fights, which nobody watches or cares about. I think she was very brave to try to go for the glory of a "real" fight, but she just couldn't get the chance. If you were a boxer of the same weight, Anonymous, would you have fought with her in a highly publicized venue? Just curious.

Dear Bob2

you wrote:
"I don't mind casting aspersions: Park is a puss- as I understand it, he doesn't teach fighting. He teaches forms and some techniques- doesn't let students spar.. he's a fruad."

What is you definition of a "martial art fraud"?

Kind regards
Volker

Anonymous,

What on earth does women practicing martial arts have to do with women being cops or firemen? I happen to agree that these are two professions better left to men, however women certainly can do well in martial arts. Obviously whether men or women, with two evenly matched fighters the bigger and stronger has the advantage. As Tim says "all things are rarely equal!" Although in my school I only have two women, the standard is not adjusted for them at all! Relatively few women are willing to train hard in martial arts but the ones that are willing, are most certainly welcome! As for your "women stink" comment personally I think you have your head up your ass and your blaming the smell on woman!

The greatest thing about the net is its doors are open to everyone. The most horrifying thing about the net is its doors are open to everyone.

When some guy comes out with a post like "women are inferior...blahblahblah" why do you all react to it? If I walked up to you on the street and said "Hey, you look like a big pussy?" would you stop in your tracks, poke me in the chest kung-fu-movie style and say, "Shut up, jerk!"

or

Would you shake your head and keep walking?

If some guys posts something moronic like "Women are weak.." or the even more common "how effective do you think internal arts are against BJJ?", just walk away. He doesn't really want your opinion anyway, he just wants a chance to rant. If you don't react to them, they magically go away.

Also, if you want to refute someone's opinion, don't rag on their spelling or grammar. It makes you look like a xenophobic jerk who probably doesn't have much to argue with.

steve

Hi Steve

I agree totally with you!!!

Kind regards
Volker

I have a couple of observations. First, Beth may or may not be more sensitive than others as to what is said about Luo, but she is right. Any of Luo's students (at least those who have studied with him for a length of time) would say the same things as Beth. When Luo was younger, he proved himself as a fighter. In recent years, he's proved himself as a teacher.

As far as women not being able to fight with men, it depends on the size and skill levels of both. In general, small men can't compete against comparably trained large men either (hence the concept of 'weight class'). Three years ago I was at a submissions grappling tournament. One women came to fight, but there were no other women entered. So she fought in the men's division in her weight class, beating all three male opponents. She pracitced Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (an 'internal style'), and made up for the difference in strength with superior technique. Could she have won if one of the stronger male fighters was technically equal? No, but neither could a male opponent under the same conditions.

My definition of a fraud, by Bob #2

Park.
Bif Painter.
Milli Vanilly.
Publisher's Clearing House.

Dear Bob #2

unfortunately you listed only names and did not say what these people made to frauds.

Kind regards
Volker