Conditioning and Internal Study???

Tim's Discussion Board: Concepts : Conditioning and Internal Study???
   By Macaco fino on Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 03:27 pm: Edit Post

Tim, There's a rather strong belief in the internal world that physical conditioning isn't as imperative as it would be as if you were practicing an 'external' martial art. (Weight training, cardio, free hand exercises, stretching, proper nutrition, etc.) In fact, Rorion Gracie has used the similar marketing propaganda in his advertising for Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

This raises my curiousity of whether Cheng Ting Hua would 'gas' fighting a physical speciman like Frank Shamrock.

In your Xing Yi book, you state that supplementary exercises are the fuel for the internal forms and fighting power.

There's a lot of internal guys out there that are physically out of shape. In my opinion, this is why 'second rate' martial art styles would kick their butt.

Care to comment?

thank you, Macaco fino


   By Tom Campbell on Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 03:33 pm: Edit Post

Cheng Ting-hua is known to have engaged in vigorous physical conditioning as a part of his art, as were other first and second-generation baguazhang masters, including the art's founder, Dong Hai-chuan. Cheng is reputed to have stood at his eyeglass-grinding bench on one leg, thigh perpendicular to the floor, with the other leg crossed over it, for the entire work day. He would hold weights in his hand as he went through the "inner palms" circle-walking practice. He lifted a huge tub of water suspended from a rope. His student, Sun Lutang, practiced "crashing palm" against abandoned cannons, then went out and used the focused power developed from this karate (i.e., makiwara) type training to cream a challenger from south China who had defeated all of Cheng's other students. A current Cheng-style bagua teacher from China, Liu Jingwru, published a book back in the 1980s advocating a form of "iron palm" training for bagua (thrusting fingers into a jar of pebbles, etc.). So, Macaco, if you're basing your assessment of Cheng's chances against Shamrock on the basis of the taiji fruits who are the most common exponents of the mythical magical thinking that poisons the "internal" arts, you're gonna lose your bet. Cheng certainly appreciated the importance of physical conditioning, and apparently did not see any conflict between such conditioning and the practice of baguazhang.

The whole concept of "internal" v. "external" martial arts is a bit of a mindf___ and marketing ploy anyways. The highest levels of the "external" martial arts will include strong elements of "internal" training, e.g., relaxation (not slumping) and whole-body coordination in the delivery of power. I think Tim has made it clear in past interviews he's given that not a single one of the many competent teachers he's studied with really talked much about "qi", except to say perhaps that qi is a natural development that can't be forced and will come only through diligent physical training with proper mental discipline.

One other point to consider is that UFC-type events usually feature well-conditioned athletes in a toe-to-toe slugout. With the exception of the Gracies on their good days, there is little evidence of the kind of tactical thinking and skill that constitutes a strong part of the "internal" arts' arsenal. I'm thinking specifically of the evasive tactics of baguazhang, although taiji tactics aren't very apparent either, whether in the UFC events or daintier happenings like "A Taste of China" push-hands competitions.

I would qualify Tim's backing of Cheng Ting-hua over Frank Shamrock by noting that Cheng pursued baguazhang as a hobby, not as a matter of life and death as the Imperial bodyguards of the Yin Fu school did, not even as a matter of dollar signs as the UFC guys do. Even so, the few stories we have of Cheng's encounters with challengers are pretty impressive.


   By Macaco fino on Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 03:36 pm: Edit Post

Some good points Tom. Actually, I agree with many stated. Although, I have discussed the conditioning aspect at length with Dan Miller (former editor/publisher of the Bagua Journal), I still feel that there is a quite a bit of 'romancing' of the physical prowess of the early internal masters. "Cheng is reputed to have stood at his eyeglass-grinding bench on one leg, thigh perpendicular to the floor, with the other leg crossed over it, for the entire work day." That is simply ridiculous. I raise the question specifically because the importance of physical conditioning isn't apparent in what is left of much internal.

"So, Macaco, if you're basing your assessment of Cheng's chances against Shamrock on the basis of the taiji fruits who are the most common exponents of the mythical magical thinking that poisons the "internal" arts, you're gonna lose your bet."

I wasn't speaking about the common taiji pracitioners. My question is directed to the masters of old. For example, how did they train? Oh, I can buy into the political party line that all they did was forms and standing practice, and because of this they accomplished great things but clearly there was much more. If they were efficient in fighting, there was specific reasons for it. What were these reasons?

You raise an interesting question, "there is little evidence of the kind of tactical thinking and skill that constitutes a strong part of the "internal" arts' arsenal" My question is why? To have 'good' footwork, you better have good physical conditioning. You're fooling yourself (not specifically you Tom)in thinking that if you walk in a circle you're going to be able to evade a good double leg.

Methods and practices? Too hard for modern internal practioners? Tim is a physically tough and in good shape. Is there a correlation between good internal (or martial arts external) and physical conditioning?

Macaco fino


   By Tom on Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 03:38 pm: Edit Post

Hey, Macaco:

I don't think we're in disagreement at all on the importance of sound physical conditioning for any kind of fighting art. My points about Cheng Tinghua were two-fold: that he, like other of the "old" masters of the "internal" arts, valued physical conditioning. I don't think that you can simply dismiss the story of Cheng spending his days on one bent leg as "ridiculous." The story specifically says that Cheng would alternate legs. It is possible to get down that low on one leg . . . albeit I can only do it with my empty leg straight ahead, not crossed over my supporting leg as Cheng is reported to have done. It works not only your leg, but your kua and lower back as well. Just because I/we can't do it does not mean the story can be dismissed out of hand. And that was only one aspect of the training that Cheng engaged in. If you look at Liang Shou-yu's book "Emei Baguazhang," you'll see examples of other kinds of baguazhang physical conditioning. Shuai jiao practitioners like Cheng are known to have engaged in a variety of strength and flexibility exercises not unique to internal arts.

I think Dan Miller's main point about physical conditioning was that many of the people who learned baguazhang (and for that matter xingyiquan)came from an agricultural or laboring background and were already in pretty decent physical conditioning. The training practices of the internal arts then were adapted to coordinate and refine that strength ("whole-body power"). Such training was designed to deliver the power of their legs to their palm or fist (most apparent with xingyiquan's "beng quan"). Getting hit with a solid beng quan hurts every bit as much as a roundhouse kick, believe me.

Circle-walking in baguazhang is primarily a practice for physical conditioning (especially of the legs in the lower basin stances) and mental focus. It was purportedly adapted by Dong Haichuan and his successor students from a meditative Taoist circle-walking practice. Circle-walking is NOT intended to teach evasive skills, as far as I know. The palm changes and two-person straight-line forms are used to teach evasion and angles of attack.

As I said before, I think Cheng was a dedicated hobbyist. He did not depend on baguazhang for his livelihood, and did not confront physical attackers or opposing soldiers every day. I'm risking a bit saying this, but few of Cheng's students seem to have been competent fighters. And I would venture further to say that most of Cheng's students who were known for their fighting skills probably developed those skills through xingyiquan practice. Bagua may have helped refine what they already had. I would especially say that about the Gao-style practitioners coming to us via Chang Chung-feng. I would leave it to Tim to say how much of his teacher Luo De Xiu's fighting ability comes from xingyiquan and how much is due to his bagua training. But I've only watched Luo on videotape and have not had the chance to work with him directly, so this is all pure speculation.

So I'm not backing Cheng over Shamrock (Frank or Ken)at all. The guys today are in superb condition. What modern fighters might get from internal arts practice with qualified teachers is sound training in mental focus, tactics, and training that might extend their useful shelf life a bit.

Where is Tim in all of this discussion anyways? ;-] .


   By Macaco fino on Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 03:39 pm: Edit Post

Tom, Excellent post. I agree.

I believe that many fighters would benefit greatly from internal training for exactly the points that you mention. This is why Tim's Shen Wu curriculum is excellent. He makes your internal practice very efficient. It might sound ludicrious, but people can actually fight with internal if they train the way Tim presents it. ;)

I also would like to hear Tim's view's on this subject. (Do I have to call you again Laoshr???)

Good training, Macaco fino

p.s. Tom, it's great to have you on the forum


   By Dave C. on Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 03:32 pm: Edit Post

I've followed this discussion and I'd like to make a few comments. i too have seen many out of shape internal artists and have often wondered how they would hold up in a physically challenging fight. From what I can tell, being out of shape is never good regardless of the art practised. However, if you're doing Gao style bagua you know that doing the tian gangs and the hou tien will provide you with an excellant workout. When the stances in the hou tien are done low with maximum extension and performed consecutively for as long as you can go you won't have to worry about any other kind of conditioning. And forget that "don't sweat" stuff I've heard some taiji people say! Just my opinions.


   By Tim on Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 03:42 pm: Edit Post

Great topic gentlemen. A person who wishes to fight for "real" in any capacity (street, combat sports competition) or just participate in contact sparring or grappling has to be in shape. Adequate strength is necessry, good flexibility is necessary and cardiovascular conditioning is paramount. For the combat martial artist, it is also necessary to learn how to absorb contact and how to conserve energy under stressful situiations. It doesn't matter what methods are used (there are probably thousands), as long as they are effective in bringing about the desired level of conditioning. The casual martial arts practitioner who trains for 'health' or simple recreation (and doesn't plan on ever actually fighting, competing or engaging in contact sparring or grappling) can get by with forms and light technique or 'push hands' practice. The serious and/or competitive martial artist cannot. There is a famous saying in Chinese martial circles: "If one practices forms without power training (i.e. martial arts specific conditioning), one may practice until old age yet will achieve nothing." That seems clear enough. I am in the process of writing a book on Internal styles' methods of power training. I hope to have it finished in the next few months. If there are any questions on specific methods I can answer, please post or send me an e mail.


   By Tom on Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 03:46 pm: Edit Post

I'm excited to hear that you're working on a book about the power training and conditioning practices of the "internal" martial arts, Tim. Of the three High View Publications books I have that you had a hand in compiling, the most interesting (to me, personally) was "Xing Yi Nei Gong," which of course dealt with the 16-exercise set and santi standing practice of Wang Ji Wu. The chapter on body use in your "Effortless Combat Throws" books is also excellent. As you expand your thinking on internal arts' conditioning and power training into a full book, will you be including some illustrations from the various arts you've trained in? Some historical examples from each of the styles would be nice, too, and would help provide concrete detail of what is too often lost in the cotton-candy filled discussions of qi and Taoist myth that obscure the very real, technical and health-generating conditioning that the martial artists of old had to have done simply to survive in their business. I look forward to it. I also look forward to that book on Sun-style taijiquan still on your backburner.

Cheers.


   By robert on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 09:12 pm: Edit Post

"That seems clear enough. I am in the process of writing a book on Internal styles' methods of power training. I hope to have it finished in the next few months. If there are any questions on specific methods I can answer, please post or send me an e mail."


hello tim,

i am wondering what book you are talking about, i am very interested.

is it xing yi nei gong? if so, if i can only find the tape, would it be just as helpful as the book?

also, would you say that your tru balance video has exercises that develop power as well?

thanks.


   By Backarcher on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:42 pm: Edit Post

In a streetfight, I "might" choose a well conditioned track athlete who only does tai chi forms and non resistant push hands over an out of shape former boxer.

Meaning, anaerobic conditioning is one of the most important elements in a real fight. You saw it in the KIMBO video.

Technique or delivery system takes a backseat to conditioning.

People get confused by some claims of MMA fighters and grapplers superiority over traditional martial artist or "streetfighters".
It's not so much about "what" they train oppose to "how" they train. They are athletes.

Sparring gives you conditioning. "Chi or no chi"!


   By Jason M. Struck on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:27 am: Edit Post

that's why I posted the Randy Couture videos, with him doing the barbell circuits. Perfect example of anaerobic endurance conditioning. His sets were long, b/c his rounds are 5 mins.


   By robert on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:39 am: Edit Post

im not sure how that relates to my question for tim, but good points nonetheless, btw, conditioning without skill is just as stupid


"That seems clear enough. I am in the process of writing a book on Internal styles' methods of power training. I hope to have it finished in the next few months. If there are any questions on specific methods I can answer, please post or send me an e mail."


hello tim,

i am wondering what book you are talking about, i am very interested.

is it xing yi nei gong? if so, if i can only find the tape, would it be just as helpful as the book?

also, would you say that your tru balance video has exercises that develop power as well?

thanks.


   By tobias (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 06:30 pm: Edit Post

Hi Tim
I see that you haven`t answered the question yet - about the book - that leads me to the conclusion that you´re either tired of the same question all over again - and if that´s the case could you please point me to the thread where you answer it - or you´re trying to answer it but your computer somehow breaks down everytime you start to write an answer to this special thread or you´re desperatly trying to write an answer but has somehow got stuck with your fingers on your keyboard either way I´m eagerly waiting - Will there ever be a book on Internal styles' methods of power training?

Best Regards
Tobias


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