Ring inteligence?

Tim's Discussion Board: Concepts : Ring inteligence?
   By snoopy on Sunday, January 13, 2002 - 10:19 pm: Edit Post

It is kind of obvious, but still unclear to me so :) ... Lets say we have a fighters toolbox and in it we have punches, kicks, takedowns etc. Now lets say your oponent to be, has better tools than you, faster punches better kicks etc. Knowing that the only option you realy have is to outsmart him, that is use your inferior toos more inteligently. What training regiment would you sugest for this "ring inteligence". Of course the obvious answer is spar more, think more, be relaxed etc. But I am interested in your opinions (Tims especially. What is IMA approach to this?) so it is possible to zero in on key factors. I give you couple of examples: what partialy worked for me was facing the wall then imaginig myself in the ring with an oponent and going through my attacks/defences seeing in my mind oponents responses, thinking of ways to go through his defences. It is kind of self hypnosis, sometimes if I get it well I can even feel my body reacting unconsciously tensing etc. and there I do a correction. Another thing during sparring I focus on one element of strategy like only trying to throw a good counter cross while in balance.

Isn't the appeal of IMA the fable of an old man overcoming several young man, since he cant punch as afast at them ... well fill in the missing part :) (i am well aware of exaguration)
So lets have it.


   By Tim on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 07:01 pm: Edit Post

Snoopy,
Very good question. First off, we need to keep in mind that if your opponent is 'better' than you in all areas (has better technique, is stronger, faster and in better shape) and is as determined to fight, you can't win. It doesn't matter what 'style' you have practiced. Having said that, if you are talking about a non-sportive fight (one in which you have the element of surprise), you may be able to defeat (or at least escape from) a superior opponent by leading with a sucker attack when he is not expecting it. I'd recommend practicing these types of surprise attacks often.

Now, for the 'secret' of the old Internal Martial Arts master defeating the younger and stronger fighter (let's stick to one opponent at a time!). The idea that a weaker, slower Internal martial artist is able to defeat a stronger, faster opponent comes from the former's superior ability to "stick and follow." If the slower and weaker fighter is proficient enough, he will be able to make contact with his opponent, stick to him in the sense of applying constant pressure which is aimed at smothering (which slows down the speed and reduces the intensity of) his opponent's power and use the sensitivity of the contact to 'read' his opponent's intent to action, which gives the slower fighter more time to react than if there were no physical contact. The ability to stick and follow, in effect, allows the slower and weaker fighter to negate much of the speed and strength of the quicker and stronger fighter. It also conserves energy. Now, that doesn't mean our old Internal master has no strength or speed at all, it means that with a highly develop ability to stick and follow (and, of course, practical techniques to apply when the moment arrives) he actually has a chance against a stronger and faster opponent. Notice as well in this example the Internal martial artist may be slower and weaker, but he had superior contact fighting skills. So, he is not inferior in all attributes.

For those of you who have a hard time visualizing this type of strategy/technique, think of an NHB venue where the smaller and weaker grappler is able to lay on a stronger and faster opponent and smother his power until he has the chance to apply a submission (which involves using the power of the whole body against an isolated part, causing 'local superiority', another hallmark of IMA). Now visualize using a similar strategy while in a stand up fight. That's sticking/following used to overcome a stronger and faster opponent.


   By Windwalker on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 07:47 pm: Edit Post

Hi guys,
Tim, not that I disagree with what you have said, because sensitivity buys us alot of time, but I thought another reason for the "slow overcoming the fast and old beating the young " scenario, was that, given time and much practice, an older person will develop more refined power/movements, better timing and the ability to bounce strength/ power back to an opponent.

The kind of refined power I have seen some long time practioners demonstrate, LOOKS as if they are moving slower than their opponents or not moving at all, yet they put their opponents into a disadvantages position, from where they can take over the fight.

I say "LOOKS as if they are moving slower" because internally they are moving faster, making the speed of their momentum/mass (whatever) move faster. Speed of this kind is more about small movements, that in fact make a person seem slower.


Any how, I'd better go do some more refining!!


Best wishes


   By Bob #2 on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 08:11 pm: Edit Post

You must've typed that very fast...
because it LOOKS like the post of a dimwit.

When two Tigers fight.. does the slower Tiger
have more internal strength and will therefore win?


   By Wind walker on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 10:33 pm: Edit Post

Bob#2,
ofcourse speed is important, but I think there are different types of speed. One type is transporting your weapon (fist, foot body etc) through space, and another is the speed at which you can issue power or return the power of your opponent.

The latter two types of speed coupled with a descent defensive frame (even in attack) rely less on the first type of speed because you've found a smarter and more economical method of movement.

Say if one tiger was trying to throw another tiger, the first tiger is a very fast tiger and gets into position and attempts to throw the other tiger. The second tiger is not as fast as the first tiger but has practiced Tai-gar chi since he was a cub, and being older and wiser, knows the importance of rooting and borrowing the opponents force. As the first tiger trys to throw the second tiger, the second tiger(with superb timing) sinks, transfering the first tigers force into his feet and then bounces it back (all the while taking the first tigers root) and with a deft twist of his claw, redirects the first tigers motion to the floor . The outward appearence is that the second tiger has moved less and more slowly than the first tiger, and yet, thrown the first tiger!

Word spreads through the jungle of the great tiger stylist that can move sooooooooo slowly and yet defeat the younger and faster challanger, and with some exellent marketing and little explanation, a few years go by and all the vultures are well fed, cos they convinced all the sloths they could fight tigers!


Any old road, Internal strength and internal speed I think are not the same. Or maybe I'm just being a dumb ass.


   By Bob #2 on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 11:49 pm: Edit Post

sometimes it's hard to tell.


   By windwalker on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 01:06 am: Edit Post

odds be 50-50!!


   By snoopy on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 01:18 am: Edit Post

Thank you, Tim for your prompt reply. So as I understand an IMA figher would gear his tactis toward obtaining a clinch (contact) of some sort and then looking for a technique while trying to control oponent at touch.

Now to continue discussion a comment made by Windwalker is intriguing indeed. I have seen people who are very good at pushhands and they can use their frame and bodyweight masterfuly in what they do and their explanations (something akin to what Windwalkr said) sort of make sence in push hands context. However this crowd doesn't usualy do any kind of full contact work so it is hard to relate. I want to ask Tim if he ever encountered somebody who was doing both. Since I am a sucker for war stories, Tim, in your extensive travels and studies in Asia can you give a real life example of somebody utilizing these principles in sparring. May be some of your teachers, or some of the full contact competitions you have entered.
Thanks. :)


   By Water Dragon on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 02:17 pm: Edit Post

Hey Snoopy, I have a partial answer for you which is going to lead into a question for Tim.

Tim, when I spar, I was taught to see circles of force. Basically, if your hands are up in position, there's only a few ways in which you can issue power. This is the circle. If I can see where that circle is, I can move so that I'm out of the way and you have to adjust to hit me. When you adjust, that's when I punch. At touch, every time I let my hand lose contact, I hit.

I'm studying Shuai Chiao now and they don't use push hands as a training method. Any idea how I can merge my throws with my Tui Shou so that I "seize the opportunity" like I was taught to do in the boxing?


   By Tim on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 05:47 pm: Edit Post

I agree with Windwalker's post about a greater lever of skill also helping the slower and weaker to overcome the stronger and faster. I alluded to just this when I mentioned superior 'contact fighting skills' in my post above. "More refined power/movements and better timing" is inherent in the ability to stick and follow and the knowledge of how and when to correctly apply techniques.

In answer to Snoopy's question, all of my teachers are able to apply these concepts to free sparring practices. We apply these concepts in every drill and sparring practice we do in my school.

Water Dragon, push hands practice is directly applicable to the grip fighting in Shuai Jiao, as well as to the ability to set up and enter throws. When you feel the opportunity to enter, instead of punching as in boxing it might help if you think of gripping or holding from a superior position.


   By Rick Matz on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 11:33 pm: Edit Post

When two Tigers fight.. does the slower Tiger
have more internal strength and will therefore win?


If they are Detroit Tigers, they both lose.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz


   By CoolHand Luke on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 10:38 pm: Edit Post

You never met Ty Cobb did you?


   By Rick Matz on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 12:58 pm: Edit Post

You never met Ty Cobb did you?


Ty Cobb has been dead for decades. That's part of the problem.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz


   By inthegutter on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 08:07 am: Edit Post

not if you take up necrophylia chuan


   By Quasimoto on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 11:27 am: Edit Post

That was a dead end!

Quasimoto
Ringing Bells for all!


   By robert on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 10:58 am: Edit Post

This is a great thread, Tim really lays down some knowledge right here.

Tim, i would say that you have a P.h.D. in the martial arts. Good stuff man.


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