My personal opinions are not the issue, Rich. So sorry, but the only facts here are that under controlled scientific conditions, you failed utterly to demonstrate what you claimed. Dance verbally around that all you like, it remains unshakeably true.

Yiquan people of Yao Zhongxun school expressed that Wang didn't use or beleive in empty force.Although without a doubt other schools practise/train it.In Warriors of Stillness 2 Jan Diepersloot despite being convinced in his early training becomes quite skepitcal and aware of the boundaries which confide its use.I did come across many Qigong healers in the Mainland who talked of similar efects to empty force but used in a healing manner,other Qigong practioners were skeptical.
RM I take it you use these practices for healing as well?

Hi Rich,
First off, I don't need to read the book on Xing Yi, translated by Douglas Hsieh. I've read everything that Wang Xiang Zhai ever wrote (in the original Chinese). He was dead set against all ideas of 'mysterious' powers including the idea you can move someone from a distance without touching them. Most all of Wang's challenge matches were documented. Not a single one makes any mention of him using 'Ling Kong Jing.' Why would he risk closing with and striking dangerous opponents when he could have knocked them down from a distance? You should do more research so you are better informed than you appear to be at present.

I've run into several 'masters' in China that claimed to be able to push people from a distance. None of them could move anyone (with the exception of a few of their own weak minded students). I've had several try it on me. I've never felt any force at all from any of them.

Yi Quan includes many excellent methods of training, none of which include Ling Kong Jing.

what he wrote in public and what he did in private were two very different things. He did not promote the Lin Kong Jing in Public because he did not want to appear superstitious.

I trust the words of my teacher in that is what he told me. I trust his words more. He taught me as he was taught by Yu Yong Nian. Yu taught Paul as he was taught by Wang Xiang Zhai.

"My personal opinions are not the issue, Rich. "

I highly doubt that

"So sorry, but the only facts here are that under controlled scientific conditions"

a test is only as good as the people who design it. Using the word "scientific" is not going to make it any more legitimate than any other test.

"you failed utterly to demonstrate what you claimed."

I did not fail at anything. You would not know, you were not there. I never saw the results, and know as much about them as you do, which is NIL.

"Dance verbally around that all you like, it remains unshakeably true. "

"truth" is a relative term. as are opinions.
You have yours, basing them on whatever somone
else wrote. Dance verbally around it as you wish, it is unshakably true, you were not there.

WXZ designated Yao Zhong Xun as his successor. Presumably, then, he got the entire are. Yao's son, Yao Cheng Guang succeeded him.

YCG's senior student in Europe, Andrzej Kalisz has stated repeatedly that "empty force," no matter what you call it, is not a part of YiQuan.

There are no secret teachings. WXZ was very clear about that as well.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

You all will believe whatever you choose to believe.

Thanks for your opinions and views and ideas.

Perhaps one of these days we might actually meet in person at a seminar, and we can chat then.

ciao!

There is a history of Yiquan, and who was taught by WXZ at www.yiquan.com.pl.

Mr. Mooney's grand teacher, Yu Yong Nian is listed as having been among the group that learned the HEALTH version of Yiquan; not the complete art.

Perhaps this "empty force" came from elsewhere.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

"...He did not promote the Lin Kong Jing in Public because he did not want to appear
superstitious"

Are you kidding? Finding a non-superstitious Chinese person would be only slightly harder than
finding a Chinese person who'd never tasted rice.

Mr. Mooney,

Somewhere along this discussion you referred to Sawai's book as to contain some evidence that Sawai also had "empty force". I happen to have this book in my library and to be honest I never read anything in it that related to this empty force ( of course I might have overlooked it, but then you'll surely be able to point out the exact page and paragraph I must have missed ... ). There is an account of Sawai's encounter with Wang which details that Wang tapped him on his chest and that as a result of that he experienced a frightening pain but the underlying fact is that Wang "touched" or made physical contact with Sawai.

I also have a book by Yu Yongnian: it doesn't contain a single reference to "empty force".

Neither does the book written by a student of Yu Yongnian, Guo Guizhi.

Furthermore we asked Wang Yufang ( Wang's daughter ) and Cui Ruibin ( one of Yao Zongxuns top students ) about "empty force" while they were giving seminars in France some two years ago.

Wang Yufang denied its existence - I don't think that she wanted to keep a secret as she was very open to discuss the teachings of her father - and Cui Ruibin ( on another occasion ) just spit on the ground and told us to use our time to train and not dream - according to him it was impossible to move someone without contact ( sounds quite logical ).

The whole story of empty force brings into my memory a fight I once witnessed. A man with quite a reputation as a streetfighter was attacked on the street by two youngsters who wanted to test his reputation. One of them was so hurried in dealing out a punch that he stumbled over a loose stone in the pavement and fell. Had this streetfighter been practicing any martial art we might then have said that he used "empty force" to down his opponent ...

This is a bunch of sh*t.
The two gentlemen that conducted the tests are scientists (both Ph.D's) and experienced Uechi-ryu martial artists. They were very much interested at what results would be obtained. Empty force is a load of crap.

Joe Bellone

I'd offer three additional points responding to specific items Mr. Mooney mentions:

(1) Yu Yong Nian was never an "inside the door" disciple of Wang Xiang Zhai in the martial tradition of Yiquan (a.k.a. Dachengquan). Yu came over from mainland China and hit the Bay Area where he at first "convinced" a number of the more popular martial arts teachers there of his abilities, including Doc Fai Wong and Jane Hallander. Through the efforts of those two in particular, as well as Henry Look, Yu and his wife (who still teaches around there), attracted students such as Jan Diepersloot. Mr. Diepersloot tries to be circumspect about it, but winds up basically admitting in his book on Yiquan that the lin kong jing "abilities" Yu claimed to have only worked on his own fairly convinced students, and that Yu himself disclaimed any practical ability to use lin kong jing in fighting situations.

The standard disclaimer, put out by Yu and his believers including Mr. Mooney's teacher Paul Dong, is that an individual's failure to feel affected, such as Tim Cartmell related in his own experience, is due to that individual not having practiced enough to develop the appropriate sensitivity to the lin kong jing "master's" "qi". Mr. Diepersloot describes this in fairly clear detail in his book. He himself has moved away from lin kong jing practice in martial applications, as has Jane Hallander. When asked, Mr. Look will gracefully evade the question.

(2) Mr. Mooney's also referred to the late Shigeru Egami, a senior karate student of Gichin Funakoshi who also dabbled with aikido. Mr. Egami led the romanticists'/traditionalists' group in the Shotokan karate school to split with what eventually became the Japanese Karate Association. Mr. Egami's group had earlier (1955)exported Tsutomu Ohshima, who taught karate for years at Cal Tech and built up Shotokai Karate International (SKI). Senior American students of Mr. Ohshima visited Mr. Egami's school in Japan many years ago and witnessed Mr. Egami "throwing" students with vague gestures--without contact. Without exception all such "throws" were of Mr. Egami's long-time students. There is no record of Mr. Egami ever having succeeded in applying this "skill" with any non-student or in any kind of a fighting or even sparring situation.

(3) Nishino? Read his book. What he teaches is a very simple qigong practice emphasizing posture and breathing, strictly for health purposes. His martial background does include in-depth aikido training as well as taikiken. His proven martial abilities don't include any martial demonstrations with nonstudents.

Nishino's commercial success ("tens of thousands of students" makes me think of the TV show "The Price Is Right". You want to see lin kong jing? Watch the master Bob Barker work the audience. With a wave of his hand or microphone, he can induce convulsions, screams, tears or paralysis in virtually any member of his audience, none of whom have met the master before the day of the show.

(4) Ueshiba Morihei? Please. All of the tales of his empty-handed "touch free" throws (kokyunage)came from his postwar students. There is plenty of videotape footage as well as first-hand personal accounts of Ueshiba doing those throws. Study them carefully. Not a one was performed on a nonstudent or in a real fight.

Ueshiba's postwar students made him into a saint, something he came to believe himself. His evasive skill and swift strong joint locks cannot be doubted . . . even into his eighties. But there is no (to my mind) credible evidence that he was able to "project" a "force" that threw his students. If you study the video footage or the first-hand accounts, what you find is a master of distraction and angles, with the attacker basically throwing themselves. Ueshiba could work his opponents like a sleight-of-hand magician works the audience. You wind up wanting to believe despite your disbelief.

But Yu, Egami, Nishino and Ueshiba aren't really the issue here. Mr. Mooney's claimed abilities are. His repeat customers just seem to demonstrate P.T. Barnum's saying about something that happens every minute.

One can either physically move someone without touching them, or one can't. One can either demonstrate this ability in a controlled situation or one can't. Variables are irrelevant. Opinions are irrelevant. Not having seen a video is irrelevant. Making excuses is irrelevant. Innuendo is irrelevant. It is a cut and dried matter.

"Do - or do not. There is no try." - Yoda


Mooney, are you saying that these scientists faked the results of the test you agreed to, that they in fact cheated in order to discredit you? Are you calling these people who have put their reputation both as scientists and martial artists of long standing at stake, liars? That is a VERY serious thing to do, with potentially heavy legal repercussions. You may wish to consult a lawyer before you engage in libel.

Firts we have a Taoist adorned in a Superman cape.

Then we have a Painter fabricating a portrait.

What's next?

A portly/fat out of shape man running backwards after recieving a "Shi Jing" discharge?

http://www.richmooney.com/articles.html

Scroll down just a little to witness the demo and partake in a comedy of the absurd.

I do not know what is funnier,the painted portrait,or the look on the portly one's face as he trips backward feigning "Shi Jing " shock.

When viewing the fat man's throacic region there is no collapse as is usually the case in the actual recieving/absorbing of discharged force.

Of course the funniest part is not the fat stumbling buffoon,but the technique used to issue this "Shi Jing".

Not quite a Beng Chuan,not quite a traditional karate punch.

A more convincing case could have been made had the demonstrator did nothing-ooop's-I mean gave an "Empty Force" demo.

At least then we would not have had to witness such a pathetic STRETCH/REFLEX ELASTIC ENERGY discharge from the demonstrators rotator cuff region.

Keep going RMooney for you provide loads of ammo.

Okay,

I studied with Greg Fong, who also appears in Paul Dong's book along with Rich Mooney. Fong was also a personal student of Yu Yongnian. Fong's name appears in the (4th?) generation student's list on Wang's tomb as Fong Shouwei. Fong had also trained with Yu Pengxi's wife after Yu's death. Fong was also very up front that Yu was one of Wang's "health" students and not martial arts students, although he did say that Yu learned some of the martial arts system, that just wasn't his focus.

Fong did not believe in Empty Force. Fong never stated that Yu Yongnian did or ever taught or practiced it. Fong considered Paul Dong a teacher and friend but did not subscribe to his empty force ideas.

Dong visited the Pac NW in the mid-90's for a seminar that we arranged for him in Portland OR at the behest of Fong. Part of this seminar included a demonstration of "Empty Force" on the students, many of whom were "high level" teachers of internal arts in the area, and were, I would politely describe with a term coined by one of my fellow students, as "celestial posturers." I.E. the airy-fairy types that SO want to believe in chi-sy magic powers attributed to Chinese boxing practice. Many of Fong's students were of this type.

The empty force demo went as follows: we all lined up one behind the other, and Paul Dong stood at the front of the group emitting qi with his hands outstretched toward us. We were instructed to step off line when we "felt something."

I was in the latter part of the line. One by one the students and teachers in front of me stepped off line. Dong came to stand directly in front of me, by just a few feet, with his hands pointed at me like he was casting a spell on me. Nothing. He stood there for a few moments, and the woman BEHIND me actually stepped off line. I finally decided that I did not want to embarass the man and my own teacher so I stepped off line. The seminar continued.

Later at the post seminar dinner, Dong approached me in the kitchen. He seemed genuinely bothered that I had not felt anything. He asked me if I had felt his qi and I said sorry, I didn't feel a thing. He then said he would try again, and he began waving his palm over my arm, that rested on the table at which I was sitting. He did this for several minutes, sometimes moving his hand close to my arm, sometimes moving it away a few inches. He then expectantly asked "do you feel anything?" I said, "well, your hand feels warm when it gets close to my arm..."

"That's it!! He beamed. That's my qi!"

I pretty much figured out what this empty force was all about at that point.

BTW, Yao Zongxun states DIRECTLY in his book Yi Quan Zhongguo xiandai shizhan quanshu (Beijing Tiyuxueyuan Chubanshe) that there are those who believe empty force is associated with Yi Quan, and he says that this is a misunderstanding. (p. 9)

Here's a link to an interview with Henry Look, he discusses empty force in an interview with Mike Patterson. I've never met either of the two, and am a beginner, so I really don't know much about their skills or reputation. Although, I think both Tim Cartmell and Mike Patterson studied under Hsu Hong Chi.

http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/look.html

I've had the Ueshiba thing done to me. had it explained to me as well. It takes advantage of the flinch reflex. Which is a pretty damn amazong thin in itself. If you set someone up correctly, and move your hand toward theie face, they'll finch. Natural reaction. The skill comes in being able to know "how" the other guy will flinch. You set him up so as he flinches, he "throws himself." Very physical, very impressive, very explainable. It was never offered to me as an option for fighting, but I was impressed by the principle of the whole thing as well as the intimate knowledge of the body it required.

Gentlemen,

Apologies to all and especially Mr Mooney for the apparent harshness of my previous post.I was only commenting on his Shi jing technique.I was so very wrong.I thought I detected the use of a slight eccentric and then more pronounced concentric muscle contraction.So please excuse my naivette.

After viewing this;

http://www.wheelers-isshinryu.com/Pages/mooney.html

I realize I have much to learn.I have not even scratched the surface.Years of bio mechanical training leave me with the realization that science really understands very little about the esoteric regions of the martial arts.

Think of the benefits for society and especially the athletic world to be reaped.

Through the use of Empty force big league ballplayers would no longer run the risk of injury through a fist laden tirade against the dugout wall.

Running backs could create gapping holes through a line of frothing at the mouth behemoths.A little presnap swerving and manuvering would do the trick.Of course the Backfield in Motion rule would have to be amended.

I can just hear it now;

"Kudos to the running backs.They opened some huge holes.They really had their empty force working today."

The critical make or break free throw could be manipulated.Imagine Michael Jordan falling to the ground during his free throw attempt.

And Karl Malone's vooddo grin.

No more mob and fix accusations regarding pro fights.

Did you know Cassius Clay knocked out Sonny Liston with a Shi Jing Technique?

So convinced I am of being wrong,and the efficacy of these mysterious techniques,that I would be willing to have my loved ones -especially members of the female sex-put their lives on the line against some knife wielding maniac,using these techniques.

One would not have to worry about the pitfalls of a confrontation against larger and stronger opponent's bent on violence and destruction.Just a wave of the hand.

Being the realist I am I realize that to reach this state-if ever-will take a large number of years and training under an accomplished martial artist-and an according leap of faith.

But the potential upside is just to great.As the saying goes a journey of a thousand miles begins with that first step.Texas here I come.

Say,your not close to John Painter's studio are you?

I believe Mr. Mooney is, or used to be, in Oklahoma. So he's not all that far from the Captain of the American Rangers.