Tim,
Have you read Zhan Yun's article, "Neijia and Waijia - Blood Brothers or Distant Cousins?" If so, what is your take on it?
Thanks,
Walter

p.s. This is the link if you haven't read it.
http://www.sixharmonies.org/pages/IMA_Articles.htm

Thanks Walter,
It's a well written article. The information is the standard view of Chinese 'Internal' and 'External' martial arts.

It still misses the most important point. Although convenient as labels, there really are no such things as 'styles,' only people who choose to follow certain principles of body use and strategic/technical application. It's not which art is 'Internal' or 'External,' it is how individuals choose to practice.

Hi Tim:

I was just cruisin' the Net when I read your response and went to read the article by Zhang Yun. When reading current-day comments by Yang Zhen Duo, Chen Zhen Lei, Chen Xiao Wang and others, ... when asked the same question they reply that the difference is there and it is in "the mind leading the qi". In other words they are marking a specific difference. What would you say to them?

Hi Mike,
I'd say the same thing I said above.

Ah.

Tim,

I agree totally with your views that the standard definitions of external and internal are at best loose, and at worst downright misleading. However rather than choose certain principles over others, I think that successful fighters within both 'styles' tend to adopt similar core principles that are essential for success, whilst the differences they maintain are more to do with non-essential personal preferences, needs, physique etc. An analogy might be to look at the huge difference in tennis and golf swings (styles) demonstrated by the top players. The trouble begins when someone ('style') starts to dominate, everyone tries to emulate that success by copying their individual style, rather than stick to the common basics. I question whether Tiger's golf swing suits everyone, maybe even anyone except Tiger, the same as I would doubt that your martial style would suit everyone.

To me the process of internalisation , is the same as you described in another thread and the learning to drive scenario is in fact one of the analogies I use myself to describe that process. In the beginning, everything takes full concentration and attention, but with time the process requires less conscious attention. Now what happens next is the key point and I believe may be the specific difference that Mike is alluding to.

There are another set of choices available, stemming from what do you do with that regained freedom of attention? Do you like in the car scenario engage in extra external activities like eating, talking etc or do you turn a portion of the that attention 'inwards' to try to get a different or 'deeper' feel for driving, by attempting to 'drive by the seat of your pants' for want of a better word. I think the martial artists Mike has mentioned are defining internal martial arts as being those where after the basic physical rudiments are ingrained enough to allow a degree of freedom of attention/awareness, some of that attention should be 'focused' internally to attempt to mentally 'drive' the chi.

Chris,
Good points.

To give credit where it is due, I am going to cut and paste a post from another forum, and ask if Tim or anyone else is familiar with the author of the linked article.
"Da_Qiang
San Ti
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 45
Interesting article on the history of CMAs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of my more favorite curmudgeons on the myth and mystery of Chinese martial arts, Stanley Henning, has an interesting article that's worth the read:

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/cri/6.2henning.pdf "

Thank you,
Walter

I don't know Stanley Henning, Walter, but if you're interested there is another article he wrote available online called "Ignorance, Legend and Taijiquan." You can find it at www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html.

Thanks for the link to the other article, which appears to be more recently written. There isn't much balanced/critically-written history of taiji or other Chinese martial arts out there.