Gentlemen

I was kindly invited to stop by because of a certain discussion about Lin Kong Jing, and references to an experiment that was run.

It seems there was some discussion about a test that was run with Mr. Mooney. Those that wish to read about it may visit the following site.

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/an_empty_force.htm

This post will address comments made about that test.

Mr. Mooney wrote: "a test is only as good as the people who design it"

Please see the credentials of the two individuals that authored the test, at the end of the article on the above website.

When conducting this experiment, I agreed beforehand not to attempt to embarrass Mr. Mooney (at the request of George Mattson, the person who ran the camp). This was done for our edification. If denial and false statements follow this basic courtesy, then perhaps I should submit this study to a peer-reviewed journal. It's not too late to get external validation; peer review is the gold standard.

Mr. Mooney wrote: "I did not fail at anything. You would not know, you were not there. I never saw the results, and know as much about them as you do, which is NIL."

Actually I was there on the same side of the wall as Mr. Mooney. Quite a few observers (including Mr. Mooney's wife) were on the other side of the wall (I have names of some witnesses). I reviewed the choices of either "push," "pull," or "no action" with Mr. Mooney and everyone else present. Each participant was allowed first to suggest what he felt, and then I told him/her what was actually done. The results were obvious to everyone there. This is one of those situations where statistics aren't needed. But we do have the videotape and the assigned action for each subject.

Mr. Belone wrote: "The two gentlemen that conducted the tests are scientists (both Ph.D's)"

Actually that's not quite correct. I am a Ph.D. in biomedical engineering. Dr. Morenski is a practicing neurosurgeon - one of those "real" doctors .

To all...

Dr. Morenski is a bit more opinionated than I am on the subject; I have no dog in the fight.

What folks fail to realize is that a scientist like myself gets no recognition for negative results. Over ninety-nine percent of smart scientists do mundane work that becomes the building blocks of what we know today, but get little personal recognition. Most never have the opportunity to run across something magnificently unique or new. I'd give my eyetooth to have an opportunity like that fellow that noticed that bacteria weren't growing around the mold on his unwashed pile of nasty petri dishes in the sink. Excellent powers of observation and follow-up work led to the discovery of penicillin.

What do I get for failing to show positive results for Mr. Mooney's demonstration? Well I showed that on that one day, under those specific conditions, Mr. Mooney couldn't do what he claimed to be able to do. Big deal! That's not going to get me a ticket to Stockholm to pick up my Nobel prize.

I will be happy to conduct another experiment with an equal amount of care. That's pretty generous, considering I don't get paid for it! I look forward to the day that Mr. Mooney can make me famous.

Sincerely,
Bill

I read John Douillard's book on Ayurveda. At no point does this book state that his techniques turn people into superheroes. What he does state is that by training at 50% of your maximum heart rate it is -possible- to reach top levels of your sport "effortlessly".

His argument is that people training at 90% their MHR may only be injuring themselves... hardly esoteric...

His diet plans are not really 'out there' either, he comes up with things like 'people with hayfever should avoid excess fats and dairy'.

At no point did I read "By following this method you will be able to levitate and display all the vac-siddhi, causing your oppents to fly away from you in fear and frustration".

Please don't attack people unless you have -some- idea of what your talking about. Ayurvedic Medicine, like Traditional Chinese Medicine, has lots of its theories rooted in mythology. However it is still a pretty good system when one studies it deep enough.

Dummy,

I can make no logical sense of your response.

Perhaps you need a little more practice comprehending the written word.

These were not my opinions regarding John Douillard but that of recognized experts in the field of Sports Science and Training.

I thought the post bore some interesting parallels to the current topic.

We all have our belief systems.

When something or someone challenges our belief system, we can either have an "open" mind, and leave open the possibility that our belief system may be in need of some updating.

Or we can react with a load of "HOT GAS" as Training Dummy has.

Dr. Glasheen, thank you for your response. I, too, look forward to the day when Mr. Mooney or any other proponent of "empty force" or "chi projection" theory makes you famous. In truth, I would love to be proved wrong in my skepticism - think of the incredible opportunities that understanding and harnessing such an "empty force" would provide!

There is a simple way to resolve this debate. If this empty force is practical (i am a most sceptical) get old Mr. Mooney to do his stuff on
a) an amateur club boxer
b) drunken lunatic outside the kebab house on a Friday night.
c) a child

the list is endless. Will empty force work? No. Why? Because the man is a deluded charaltan. A few years ago over here in the UK, a guy called Dan Docherty infamously poured a glass of water over a master of empty force. Could the master, i think called Dr. (always a give away) Shen defend/stop the action? No. Why? Empty force? Empty truths!!

Sounds Like a decent guy to me.

Ken Gullette over at Quad Cities Kungfu http://www.kungfu4u.com/ (Hsing-I, Bagua, Tai Chi, Chi Kung) has issued a public challenge to Rich Mooney. Mooney spits on him at http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=2ae6ce34b1e256b2b6e769c030bb9237&threadid=9531&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

This is better than soaps.

"Dan Docherty infamously poured a glass of water over a master of empty force"

anyone whoever watched a Bruce Lee interview knows that you cannot beat 'wataaaah'

(who has ever)

Was the Master half-empty or half-full? Both optimistic and pessimistic glasses of water want to know...

Better yet, the question is "Was the master half-dry or half-wet?"

I was directed to these discussions by some of the principles involved in the testing. It is with some disappointment, but without any surprise, that I discover the entire response offered by the individual "sifu" consists of argumentum ad hominem and Poisoning the Well fallacies.

The bottom-line remains that the individual agreed to all aspects of the test.

He failed.

Period.

Nevertheless, I find this most disturbing:

That certainly explains why he holds such a strong personal grudge against Randi (he consistently calls him a pedophile whenever the subject comes up on a discussion board).

since to make such accusations constitutes libel. I would hope this proves untrue since it would disappoint me to no end to discover that no low exists to which the individual could sink.

Martial arts consist of a very practical "show-me" philosophy. If I make a claim, other practitioners may ask me to prove it. On the floors we regularly "means test" our ideas and skills.

Thus, in closing I will note a very "practical" challenge issued by the individual. He claimed he would meet Mr. Randi, "any time, any where," nearly six months before this test to "prove" his "powers."

In response he received repeated invitations to make good on his challenge.

He has not done this.

I leave the reader to wonder exactly why.

--J.D.

Hello J.D.

Thanks for the thoughts. I saw a response to the article on another list and the writer said something (I can't remember the exact words) along the lines that most people who do Traditional Chinese Medicine, or who teach Xingyi or Taichi, etc., are not really experts. So a study of acupuncture by the U.S. government may have done acupuncture a disservice because most of the American acupuncturists are amateurs playing a role. In other words to be fair to acupuncture, before we say it is not very effective overall, we should at least test the best Chinese experts.

The point was made that although Mooney could not do what he said when tested, perhaps what he does is totally or partially bunk but we will never know until we test someone who is really good. What do you think?

In the book "Encounters with Qi" by David Eisenberg, M.D., he mentions having roughly the same thing tried on him and he did it with his back turned while sitting in a chair, etc., to avoid as much "suggestion" as possible. He admitted he "felt something" but he was not moved.

Any thoughts?

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Question 8
Some days ago I saw a webpage teaching a technique to make "Chi Balls" that could be used in combat situations, and also some kind of Chi Field to protect you from several attacks. Is that real, or is it just some kind of myth that this person used to get people visit his webpage?
Federico, Argentina


Answer 8
It is quite easy to make "chi balls" and "chi fields". You can actually make them in 10 minutes. The methods are simple and safe, and are as follows. You can try them for fun.

Place your two palms close together, about 6 inches apart, in front of your body. Slowly and gently bring them closer together to about 2 or 3 inches apart. Then slowly and gently bring them farther apart, to about 6 inches and then 1 foot. Repeat many times until you can feel some magnetism or electric currents between your two palms. You have successfully created a "chi ball".

The movements of your palms need not necessarily be horizontal. They can be at any angles, but the palms must be facing each other . You may perform this and the following exercise standing, sitting or in any comfortable, but you must be focused and relaxed.

Now gently place your "chi ball" above your head, and gently think of the chi flowing down, covering your body. Use your palms to gently stroke down your body, a few inches above your skin, to help the chi make a "chi field" around your body. You can also make a "chi field" around your friend's body.

The "chi ball" and the "chi field" are real, but for most people they are so weak that their effects are marginal. But a master who has practised these exercises for, say, more than twenty years, and coupled with other techniques and skills, can use the "chi ball" to strike others, and the "chi field" to protect himself from attacks.

Thus, what is described in the said webpage is real, not a myth, but it is misleading and the purpose is probably to attract people to the webpage. If your purpose is to strike others, you would achieve 10 times more effect by practising to strike your palms on empty air in front of you, than by making and using "chi balls".

Hi,

I will take a risk and post my experience.

I met a man who could move people from a distance who had their back turned to him. They did not know what he was doing or planned to do. They were told just to relax physically and leave an empty mind.

Each person was a little different in how they moved. My guess is roughly half did not move and did not feel much until after it was over, and then felt quite refreshed. Some would move a little, and about 10% were very sensitive and would move a lot in some wierd ways. If they did not want to move they could resist physically.

Many could feel something around them, pushing them, like a warm air. Some felt pressure, and after a while slight nausea and dizziness.

They seemed to move more from their spine. I could almost infer that energy was being passed to them and their nervous system reacted, the spine being the biggest conduit. I could also almost infer that he was a conduit and did not use his own energy.

This is NOT a martial art. This man did not completely understand why and how people moved. However, the personal experience I had in addition to my observations is certainly more telling than words on a web site.

Has anyone heard of a "quantum hologram"? This was discussed on tv:
http://cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/episode14_intuition_2002.htm
There appears to be some prominent people doing research in exciting areas. The show also investigated distant healing.

While Lin Kong Jin as demonstrated by some to thwart an attack is strongly questioned, may I suggest that transfer of chi from a distance is possible.

The entire concept of chi projection(sans physical contact) should be excluded from consideration as a viable MA strategy. Unless you are Jesus, you cannot throw people around by just waving your hands. That being said, External Chi healing is a valid component of Chinese Medicine( Jerry Alan Johnson anyone?).

To put this issue in a more scientific light, consider the recent research study on the effects of prayer done by folks at Stanford University.

A group of women at an Air Force base in South Korea who were seeing the base physician for fertility treatments were divided into a control group and a study group(neither they nor the base physician knew anything about the study- their names were drawn off of military reports obtained by Stanford). A group of people prayed for the women in the study group to get pregnant. The group doing the praying at Stanford were provided with the first names and photos of the women, but did not know their location. The results showed 27% of the women in the control group becoming pregnant, but 51% of the women in the group that was prayed for becomung pregnant.

Of course, the results will have to be repeated by other researchers several times before there is wide spread exceptance of the potential of prayer or the power of the mind.

This study certainly seems to suggest that there might be something to all this "Chi" bussiness.

Bob

Suppose you try this. Get a similar group of people who will turn their backs for the chi test. Don't have any type of chi projection, just observe the people. You may get exactly the same results.

Some may move just because they were relaxing. Others may 'feel' something because they were quiet for the first time and not focused or distracted by other things. One must be very careful of tests of this type.

and others will get pregnant.

Is Chi projection or Chi ejection what are talking about? I do second one every night with my woman, nothing about it so special.

This board is great because of the humor here!

Mark I understand, however the people who moved did move significantly.

Another scientific fact is twin photons. When one moves in a specific way, the other moves in the exact same way at the exact same time... from any distance away. Interesting stuff. Enrico could potentially double his pleasure!

I agree this is not a viable MA strategy. Science may soon explain more than we already know about chi and hopefully this will help improve martial arts or our ability to learn.