The push hands I've seen comes down to this: 2 people start off in the hand holding position and then proceed to push each other a foot away. I see rooting being done but this can't be the final culmination of tai ji skill can it?

My friend studies tai ji and had us doing this drill where we were both in bow and arrow stance sort of. We were leaning against each other and trying to uproot. He told me that his teacher told him that the next level will take 20 years to reach. There is a funny video of his teacher on YouTube where his teacher seems to be controlling students from accepss the stage. No touching!

I've heard that push hands was really a wrestling drill with take downs so why all this malarky in this country? 20 years. Really.

If there was striking, pushing, and sweeping, etc then I'd say push hands was a worthwhile drill.

this is a push hands competition in China...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUJ_VKiz6No&feature=channel_page

this is a push hands demonstration showing who to use applications...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0TEAqj-O20&feature=channel_page

this is a different demonstration of skill...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkQenQofxs8&feature=channel_page

Regarding the push hands, Tim taught me to do many of those push hands techniques within a few months of training with him. (I'm out of practice now)... but when I was doing it regularly I could pull off several of those throws despite my oppoent's efforts to throw me.

Push hands is a training technique to help you learn to keep your balance while off balancing your opponent. With consistant and real practice you should be able to do anything you'd do in a real fight within the 'push hands' frame work.

"20 years to learn..." is only used by teachers who don't know how to do what you're asking them to teach, but want to keep the money rolling in.


Happy training
Shane

"If there was striking, pushing, and sweeping, etc then I'd say push hands was a worthwhile drill."

Add in throwing, and that's exactly what real push hands training entails.

ps She really did look Asian.

Tim,
At Shen Wu you emphasize throwing a lot. Is striking emphasized as much? Do you teach typical boxing strikes or do you integrate Kung fu San soo striking g ad well?

Also Tim I agree with the throwing in push hands. Why do you think push hands changed to this fa king pushing a foot away thing?

"Also Tim I agree with the throwing in push hands. Why do you think push hands changed to this fa king pushing a foot away thing?"


People in China enjoy push hands as a freindly game. I have done a lot of this kind of thing in China. Its fun. In BJJ people often start from the knees because they wand to avoid being thrown hard too often. That lengthens the training longevity, yet people do not say "You never start from your knees in a real fight!"
In China, especially outside with no matts, push hands is a way of practising certain skills with some sort of resistance and without injury.
In Renzo Gracie's MMA book he describes a game where they try to push each other outside of a circle, and says its a great way to teach balance and off balancing.
In Randy Couture's wrestling book, he says that the throws are the easy part, learning to unbalance the opponent takes the most practise!

The 'problem' is that, for the most part, taiji people on't practise the throw/strikes/finishing moves. So they could unbalance you, but not be able to take advantage of that split second to land a strike or perform a takedown.

IMO thats why push hands is a great exercise, but not a substitute for sparring.

It's not just CMA that suffers from this: BJJ will always be more popular than MMA because 'rolling' is fun and good exercise- but its not so much fun when your opponent is punching you in the face with his other hand.

Pushing hands without the throws is the same as BJJ without the strikes; a lot of fun, and a great exercise that if you want to be able to fight must be integrated with other skills.

Push hands, when taught properly is a very useful and effective tool in the clinch, and is similar to judo or grappling takedowns, but without the groundwork.

Timber,

All classes are divided into half the time spent striking and half the time spent grappling.

I teach striking methods akin to boxing, but with the "flavor" of the internal arts I studied. Since my students fight in amateur MMA events (and occasionally in street fights), everyone has to learn to kick and punch.

David,

"Pushing hands without the throws is the same as BJJ without the strikes"

This is an incorrect comparison. Push hands without the throws teaches no finishing skills. All BJJ techniques aim toward submission. A person properly trained in the sport grappling aspects of BJJ only (one who hasn't learned the striking methods of BJJ) will still be able to defend himself in a street fight. The same is not true of someone trained only in push hands.

I push them into the street and let the bus finish them

^LOLOLOLOL

I think your mom sucks.

Well, apparently she does... Or did, at one point in time.