• Archive through July 25, 2000 July 25 - 09:54 pm [25]

Wow Guys Group Hug! Tom I think you've have a strong character. As Macaco so aptly put it in his motto, quite gracious. It doesn't matter if we all agree, we most certainly can disagree agreeably! By the way same thing for Jim/Fred/Rupert??? Do you pay dues to Tim for all your personalities? If so I'd like to get some multiple personality types in my school.

Sum Nut(s):

Whatever. I sure didn't--and don't--go looking for fights in streets or bars. They happened. In part because I'm kinda stubborn about insisting on being able to go where I want, in part because I was probably ignorant, unaware or just plain stupid about developing situations. The bar is not my dojo.

Sum Guye:

Yes, among other venues I've been in bars with gay friends. I'm not gay. But I enjoy my friends for who they are. You obviously have a problem with gays, and I feel sorry for ya. No fights or confrontations ever happened for me in gay bars. The pool cue incident was in a bar in an industrial part of town.

I'd love to hear how "street" confrontations developed for people and how they handled it. It's not a macho thing. It's probably more useful for "real life" than competitive matches.

Tom,

Just stop. The more we know about your "night life" the "funnier" you become. I especially like your strategy of "sweet-talking"...is that somekind of code?

Interesting, Meynard . . . people ask for background here, and then use it to put the person down. Total bullshit. I don't have any problem with who I am, just with some of the attitudes I encounter in here . . . basic prejudice and putdowns from aging bad boys.

No, I won't stop. Sum Guye(I'm chuckling at that name)volunteers to talk about one or two street situations he's been in, with the focus on how they evolved into a conflict . . . I think that's a legitimate discussion topic for a martial arts forum. And more interesting/valuable to me in learning about self-defense than discussion of specific techniques used only in the dojo.

But it's also probably a topic for a separate thread, since this one got flushed down the toilet a long time ago.

That's right Tom. I've got one final thing to add to this thread, and it is for Sum Guye; the next time you use a phrase like "verbose pontification," you are banned for life from my discussion board.

Sum Guye -
I'm so glad you are back on the Discussion board. I have a question that I believe is to petty and below Tim to answer so I thought of you. I have a question about the Gao style Circle Snake form. I know you practice Sun style Ba Gua so this question might be an easy one for you to answer. I originally sought the help of Mr. Wacky Walker from the Ba gua discussions. He was very nice about trying to recreate the problem himself. Unfortunately he kept tripping and falling before the point that I am having the problem. My problem is during the transition on the single palm change. The fingers of my piercing hand get jammed up my nose. The odd part is that it is always a different finger. How can I become consistent on which finger it is?

Thank You

First off, Son of Sum Nut, you're putting your fingers up the wrong orifice. They are supposed to be jammed up your ass. If the whole palm doesn't fit, then you're practicing bagua finger, not bagua zhang.

Now now gentlemen let's not get nasty.

Son of Sum Nut,

To understand the movement you should first understand the form's name. The 'Snake' form obviously refers to a part of the anatomy which, in some cases, may resemble a finger but should actually resemble a python or a circumcised cobra,
or as Tim proudly points out, an anaconda.

With that understanding, during the transition from wrapping to piercing- your 'snake' (if you are as blessed as we Sun stylists) should spring forward in a circular arch and thump loudly against your chest.

Your hands will be extended away from your body naturally as you will want to avoid the possibility of fellow students accusing you of making the 'thump' sound with your hands.

They do have surgeries now that can assist you in becoming more suited for the Sun style.

good luck.

Sounds like the opposite of the surgery Dong Hai Chuan underwent to become accepted at the Imperial Court.

Tim Sifu

You said "Cheng Ting Hua (of Ba Gua Zhang fame) placed a strong emphasis on caution when engaging a strange opponent. He recommended testing before going in for the decisive technique. Good advice in that he was talking about fighting professional martial artists (professional meaning they trained and fought for a living)."

This is a dueling scenario, though, isn't it? What do I mean? Well, if you don't wander around getting into fights on purpose, and you are good-natured and can defuse situations, I suspect that the common self-defense scenario for you would be an unxepected assault - the guy is mugging you, for example. A lot of guys are good at using the social situation to get within conversational range and firing off the first hit. While your advice is great, I wonder if it is realistic to go through life as if you were in a duel with everyone you talk to. Probably not very good for you, I think you would agree. Caution against a perceived threat is commendable, but what goes on in your mind when the threat is unperceived, and actualizes?

The discipline I currently engage in (I won't say which, as I'm not here to advertise, and don't want to dirty your carpet without your permission) deals with this issue in a number of ways - learning to attack from a modified flinch, learning to absorb strikes and counter, learning to move with the opponents body and not the threat, blindfold training, etc. etc... I was curious as to whether you do any training in this direction? I have heard of the concept of receiving (kinetic) energy and throwing it back in TCIMA, I am just curious if it extends to receviing the energy by surprise.

Loved Effortless Combat Throws, btw. Will probably get practical chin na in the fullness of time.

jellyman

Hi John,

I'd like to respond to your inquiry about Tim's training method's a little. You state your training deals with, "learning to attack from a modified flinch, learning to absorb strikes and counter, learning to move with the opponents body and not the threat, blindfold training, etc."

Tim trains us much in the same fashion. In fact, I've trained in all the methods that you state above with Tim (and more) with the exception of the blindfold thing. (He tried this once and then stated I'd feel some pressure - no wait, wrong teacher, sorry )

You make a good point about, "Caution against a perceived threat is commendable, but what goes on in your mind when the threat is unperceived, and actualizes?" My answer is, "oh sh&t." Specifically, you can be the best trained fighter, but if the guy catches you off guard, you're in trouble. How can you mentally prepare yourself never to be caught off guard? I don't think it's possible. If a person works their way in so you trust them and then attacks you, there's not much you can do to prepare. In my opinion.

good training,
Macaco fino

Well, you can learn to roll with the punches reflexively. This is cultivated by taking random hits, some times while blindfolded, with the force slowly increasing over time. The idea is that the body will learn how to absorb the impact, deflect/ride out the blow, without you thinking about it. This is to minimize damage.

Another sort of related drill is to amble around the club talking to each other, and lashing out without warning. This is artificial because everyone knows what's up, but after a couple of minutes, when you get them to start laughing, or excited, or otherwise involved in the conversation... There's also group fighting, where you get a bunch of people trying to get everyone else.

Results?

Well, the main guys (from the old country) are like hitting smoke, and the seniors in North America can take a lot of impact with little effect.

Thing is, can they only do this in the training hall, or is it something they can walk around with? The main guys, I have no doubt can do it, but their life experiences are so outside of most peoples that it's arguable as to whether the training without that experience would give one the same level of result.

Still, I thought this sort of training might have been done in other arts, and had hoped to gain some insight from a different perspective.

John,

Strategically, you should first train to observe you surounding and especially the people around you. Then you would need to orient yourself to be in best possible way(angle or position)to counter act any attacks that are going to be launched towards you. My rule is to practice awareness so you don't get caught off guard or in an "oh sh#t situation". If you are trying to defend against an attack it's too late. Positioning and good powers of observation is important. Why? Because it helps you gain initiative. He who can observe the situation and asses the information and place themselves in the best position to counter act will have the initiative even if he didn't move first. Why? having initiative in an encounter means that you make the opponent react to the situation that you've placed him in. This is similar to playing chess. First you observe the board and then you orient your pieces to the best possible position where your opponent has to always react to your actions. Position, position, position...

Hi John,

I apologize because I don't think I made myself very clear. I was referring to a situation where your opponent was inside your safety zone and you 'trust' them so you don't have your defenses (awareness) up.

Let me state, I've worked out with possibly some of the people you are referring. (There's a lot of video tapes now on the market by this particular group. Why I even have a certificate from them - ask Uncle Tim, he's seen it.) I believe if I wanted to get inside their defenses and 'sucker' them (this would be done w/deceit on my part) there wouldn't be very much for them to stop me. And just a side note, the psychic energy stuff is full of sh&t. (no disrespect) Meynard's correct. (I think he trains in Giocco Stretto...)

good training,
Macaco fino

"There's a lot of video tapes now on the market by this particular group. Why I even have a certificate from them - ask Uncle Tim, he's seen it."

Who'd you get it from?

Do you work out in Canada? There's a lot of spin-off federations out there, guys taking a few seminars, saying they represent, starting a federation... Not good. My guideline is to ask the main man in Canada (I know him) if an instructor is worth going to.

"I believe if I wanted to get inside their defenses and 'sucker' them (this would be done w/deceit on my part) there wouldn't be very much for them to stop me."

Yes, but I'm not talking stopping, I'm talking about damage control. If you ever got to hit the main guys or the legit instructors, you'd know what I'm talking about.

"And just a side note, the psychic energy stuff is full of sh&t. (no offense) " Then you don't know what it's about. Internet gossip aside, I've been told it's about fear, manipulation, reflexes, and body control, nothing supernatural. That's from the main guys. Others get metaphysical. Fear can be a good tool.

"Position, position, position... "

Yes, I am aware of group tactics, the monkey line, etc. I'm trying to find out if you practice getting hit by surprise and have systematic methods of learning to absorb shock when this happens so that you may survive and counter. This has nothing to do with PE, btw. This is just about getting hit.

Getting hit by a buddy? Yeah that would be hard to anticipate. But a stanger who talks to you for 1/2 hour first? Kind of nebulous.

btw, I'll modify my profile so you don't think I'm trolling for anyone...

Hi John,
As Macaco Fino responded, we do have training methods similar to the ones you described. The most basic method is to stand in an upright and relaxed stance while your partner pushes, pulls, strikes and kicks you (beginners are subjected to lighter forces, advanced students to greater forces). This type of training is called "hua gong" or "transformation skill." The purpose is to train the body to absorb and potentially 'borrow' the incoming force and return it to the attacker. The basic method involves mainly neutralization while keeping the balance. Later stages involve cultivating a spontaneous counter attack created from the reaction to the opponent's initial force. This type of training is the cornerstone of combat Tai Ji Quan. Ba Gua Zhang has a similar drill which involves yielding to and then counter throwing the opponent. We don't use blindfolds, but sometimes practice with the eyes closed.
It's my opinion that if your trained martial reactions and 'techniques' are not based off your natural reactions, they will fail you in a real fight, when under extreme pressure. This is also the reason I highly recommend free sparring with striking and submissions. A little bit of adrenaline and it's a different world.
In regards to Cheng Ting Hua's advice, it was Cheng Ting Hua's advice when challenged to fight by another martial artist. I doubt if he walked around continuously on guard either.
Still, I try to emphasize the point that awareness is the most important element in the street (primarily for avoidance of trouble). If someone unfamiliar gets close, a little paranoia is probably not a bad thing. I'd also reckon that with proper training, one does not have to be Spetsnaz to be able to react spontaneously to an unexpected attack.
Feel free to talk about the arts you practice on this board. It won't be misconstrued as a plug. Personally, I'm very interested. Thanks for the posts.
Tim

Tim,

Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like you guys do pretty near the same thing we do. The art I practice is (yeah you guessed) Vladimir Vasiliev's systema. A friend of mine (commonly known on the net as shooter, unsure what he'd be called on this board) was saying how alike in principle systema and TJQ are, if different in execution. (He trains nothing but TJQ combatitively out in BC, and does MMA). He also said you had a forum, so I thought to check it out.

As I said before, your book of throws impressed me, because it wasn't until systema that I found anyone else trying to describe throws in terms of principle rather than technique (I confess the only books I read on the matter was one from YJM press, and a ****-load of Judo manuals). I was able to use one of the throws right away in sparring consistently, so that alone made the purchase price worthwhile. Of course it also gave me a lot of insight, and now I don't really think in terms of what kind of throw I'm doing anymore. Based on that book and this conversation, I'd say that good MA is good MA, and you teach good MA.

Thanks for answering.

John

John,
Thanks for the kind words about my book. I have seen and enjoyed most of Mr. Vasiliev's tapes, the similarities with the Chinese Internal styles are often remarkable. I do have one question though, in the training methods of the Systema, is there any kind of non-cooperative sparring (striking, grappling) or is it mainly the taking turns feeding your partner attacks type seen on the videos? If you don't want to answer on a public forum, please e mail me at shenwu1@peoplepc.com

Tim Sifu,

Sparring:

There's basically levels of escalation.

For beginners, it's usually grab escapes. A tries to grab B, B tries not to let him (without running away). You develop sticking and redirection skill. The next phase is to escape the grab and counter with a takedown/lockup. The grabber must try to escape your counters, and keep trying to grab.

Then there's hitting escapes, kicking escapes - same idea.

What is important is that the attacker is not using some pre-fab techniques requiring pre-fab responses. This really sharpens your eye for takedowns.

Then there's all-in grappling, which includes finger locks and neck cranks, starting from standing. Because of the sensitive nature of the locking, at least one partner must be senior enough for control. The dominator is obligated to show the other how to escape, or at least give hints.

The actual full sparring is basically striking and grappling mixed, but the level of force for the strikes and the general intensity ranges from milqtoast to harsh, also depending on the target. One might slam the body, put merely push the knee, for instance. The level here also depends on your ability to take a punch as discussed, and is usually felt out with the other guy. Things can get pretty intense, but the general culture here is to improve everyone. What's funny is that anything goes here - elbows, knees to any target -but nobody gets injured, beyond the odd bloody nose/lip or black eye (protective equipment is not very popular - I've never seen anyone wear a groin cup).

There's also the survival game, where A and B attack and counter for a prescribed number of technique exchanges, with escape at the end being an option to a counter.

There's also knife defense sparring - just about every class has that - with the attacker having 1 or 2 knives. Also is knife duelling, knife ground grappling with one or both persons armed. Vasiliev will also give pointers on knife attacks, to add realism.

I've only seen guns drilled.

Then there's mass fights, wall fights, fighting where both parties start in a push up position, mass fights where everyone is in a pushup, or squatting...

There's also 'soft work' where you both go slow and try to use the barest minimum force to manipulate. The idea here is to see the breaking point of balance, and feel where the strikes should go.

Also, is something like chi sao, where you cross fists, and try to push/punch each other with the fist without breaking contact.

And sometimes guys will just throw down when drilling - not discouraged, as long as they got the lesson for the particular drill.

Actually, systema bases everything on reflex and spontenaity. Sparring is treated as a game, rather than a sport. No one keeps scores. People don't give up as easily if they forget how many points they are down. They also have an easier time admitting to themselves that they got caught, because they didn't 'lose' and so improve.

btw, I'm not an instructor, although I've been doing it for about 1.5 years, not as often as I'd like . Got the rest of my life, tho . I have much to work on.

Thanks very much for the information John. I'd like to come and visit your school if I am ever up that way. Regards,
Tim

See http://www.ettishfetalfighting.8m.com/
Do you guys train in this technique? Is it effective under pressure?

If you don't like the fetal position technique, maybe this guy's stuff can help you when your back's against the wall:
http://streetcombat.8m.com/main.html

"Master Bristol asked for a volunteer from the audience. He asked the volunteer to take a gun filled with rapid fire paint balls and shoot him at close range. The volunteer took the gun and was ready to fire. Master Bristol quickly flicked at the volunteers wrist. The volunteer proceeded to pull the trigger. Then he realizes that there was no trigger. He was now holding a banana rather than a gun."

Hey, you kook! I think you posting these two links only show me that you're the one holding your own banana in your hands!!!

Get a grip Dude, go spank some hottie instead of yourself. As far as the Uncle Fred thing, it's old news. Get updated. Maybe post Sak's Judo chop clip. Now he's the man. He's ugly, probably you are too, but at least he's entertaining.

And remember -
"There's only one Betty, Big Balled Betty!"

Don't mess with me Betty.

www.martialart.org

Observer,

That was the worst website that I have ever seen. What a piece of s@#%!

I know. Pretty amazing piece of work. Watch out for that Martin Gale guy. Well hey I'd better shuffle off before Betty kicks my a$$.

Vasiliev's art is effective but its historical roots may be a little less ancient than he claims.

http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/ruseng.html

XX century: beginning
Before the revolution of 1917 year there wasn't teaching of hand-to-hand combat methods in army, even in special forces. At soviet time mass preparing of fighters at most times was in reports only, but some things were changed.

Besides different schools of early sambo, Red Army also had applied hand-to-hand combat, sometimes combined with fighting vs. armed opponent. Compulsory curriculum of training for that-time "commandos" included so-called "free-style fighting" (another name - "fighting of unarmed", fighting with short weapon (with knives and unarmed vs. armed with knife), bayonet fencing and unarmed vs. bayonet fighter. There were no counter-methods against opponent armed with more long weapon (sabre, "shashka" (special cavalry sabre)) or revolver: it was clear that teaching "for all" cannot prepare such a fighter.

1920s were marked by new interest for complex fighting systems. But they weren't non-controlled: coaches usually worked in NKVD ("Narodnyi Komissariat Vnutrennih Del" - People's Commissariat of Inner Affairs; police of that time), and common citizen couldn't study those systems. At that time law became prosecute for "exceeding of self-defence limit". Combat methods could be studied "for special using" only. The most-known coaches of that time were Nil Nikolaevich Oznobishin and Ivan Lavrentievich Solonevich.

Oznobishin was born in noble family, but became a circus actor. Together with his circus Oznobishin visited many countries. He knew many languages and liked boxing very much. At 1915 year he participated First Moscow boxing championship. During 1918-26 he served in Red Army, coached boxing for soldiers. At 1930 he published a book "Art of hand-to-hand combat". After false accusation, he was arrested in 1941 and exiled to Kazakhstan on five years.

There are also very few information about Solonevich. He was born in 1880s. First and only printed work with description of his school was made at 1928 year. It was illustrated book "Self-defence and attacking without weapon". Most methods of catching and throwing were from "free-style american wrestling". Unlike Oznobishin, who estimate fist strikes from english boxing adn included them in his system, but underestimated really power strikes, Solonevich advise to use "power" strikes, and boxing's evades. But unlike Oznobishin, Solonevich wasn't familiar with french boxing. But in any case he created a good school, useful in application. According to indirect information, at 1930s I.L.Solonevich was succesful in emigration from USSR.

Creation of sambo
One of the first men who was succesful in studing "combat wrestling" was V.A.Spiridonov, officer of old Russia Army. He came to army as volunteer, became officer, fought during Russia-Japan war 1904-05. After the war he began to study europian version of japanese jujutsu. During WWI he was injured and retired. Since 1919 he worked in the field of physical development of soldier and began to develop new system of self-defence. Up to the end of 1930s he never denied that his system was based on japanese art of close-range combat.

Since 1920s, Spiridonov's system "Sam" became to spread among USSR policemen and borderguards. At 1928 year his students won a match against german's judo wrestlers (2:1).

Another famous person of that time - Vasilii Sergeevich Oshchepkov. He was born on Sakhalin island, at that time - japanese land. He studied judo in Kodokan-judo, up to 2nd dan. At 1920s he worked in Vladivostok and in China. Later, after a short period of working in Novosibirsk, Oshchepkov came to capital, and was successful in partial pushing of Spiridonov's school. On the base of judo he developed new system of hand-to-hand combat for army. He called this system "free-style wrestling".

Ochscepkov's system was for fighter, Spiridonov's system - for saboteur. Oshchepkov didn't agreed to keep silence about oriental origin of his system. As a result, he was arrested as "japanese spy" and immediately killed in prison. His school kept existence and became a base of modern sambo (SAMBO is "SAMozashchita Bez Oruzhiya" - "Self-defence without weapon". New heads of school (Kharlampiev, quickly named as "creator of sambo", and others) made great efforts for deleting all similarities between sambo and oriental martial arts. Gradually the best martial art of soviet time became not the best sport competition art...

Spiridonov's system had another fate. This system didn't exist officially, but kept in real life: this school was popular among NKVD officers. Many methods became a part of sambo. But army's sambo and police's sambo had different purposes: soldier usually has to kill his opponent in situation when he lost his weapon, policeman prefer to keep his opponent alive (but immobilised).

1938, october, 16: data of signing the order about "borning" sambo. This order said, that this system "was created on the base of elements from national kinds of wrestling - georgian, tadjik, kazakh, uzbek, kirghiz - and best elements from other kinds of wrestling". Obviously, that at 1928, at Stalin's time, georgian wrestling was the first, and there was no place for europian and japanese kinds of wrestling. But what can we say about wrestling of different USSR nations?

Asian national kinds of wrestling


Most asians (and, partially, caucausian) kinds of wrestling are "belt wrestling" (i.e. wrestling with catching the belt) in moslem variant. Static catching by two hands or by one only (in this case another hand is free for catching above the belt), lifting and throwing... There are no ground fighting. Competitions took place on special yard - "maidan".

Names for most Middle-Asia kinds of wrestling originate from turk's word "kurash". Uzbek kurash, tatarian kuresh, kazakh kures... Even azerbaidjan gurassu - from the same family. Techniques and rules are very similar to each other. Fight is finished when opponent has to touch the ground "in the third point". There are exist throws over the legs, but there are no throws made by legs. Catching the legs is rare too. No strikes, no kicks. Up to 1940s, for instance, uzbeks called fist-fighting as "russian fighting".

Caucausian kinds of wrestling have little difference. No rigid fixing of hands. In Azerbaidjan "belt" is a zone below the waist (short bridges), in Georgia and Armenia - zone above the waist (leather jacket).

For hiding japanese origin, sambo enriched national kinds of wrestling. It is very interesting to compare textbooks on such kinds of wrestling, published at 1930s and at 1950s. Latests books usually have much more techniques, adopted from sambo.

Buryats have its own kind of wrestling - buhe barildaan ("wrestling of strong men". Several clans have special kinds of martial arts. Most known is hara moriton ("black horsemen", which include horseback riding, unarmed combat, using different tools (whip, lasso, belt etc). According to legends, this system was founded by legendary heroes - Azhirai Buhe and his assistant Haramtsagai-mergen. They were heads of military group, came to Baical lake from Mongolia on the black horses and protect local habitants from evil tribes. Similar methods are known from other siberian national minorities - for example, Tuvinians have kyuresh, karakyuresh, lamakyuresh etc.

Our time
After the WWII sambo became a popular kind of sport. It has sport part, based on Oshchepkov's methods, and its continue - combat part (so-called "combat sambo", which has in addition many jointlocks and strikes (originated from Spiridonov's system), forbidden in sport sambo. Now there are several centers of sambo in Russia, main point is small town Kstovo in Nizhnii Novgorod's region.

Another verison of Spiridonov's system is so-called "Kadochnikov's system". A.A.Kadochnikov works as teacher of theoretical mechanicks in Krasnodar military colledge of rocketry and artillery. On the base of Spiridonov's work and his own knoledges about mechanics of movement he developed his own system of hand-to-hand combat. This is science-based investigations of our time, useful in real fighting. He tried to establish his system as basic system for army's hand-to hand combat, but without success. But later, at 1980s, several students of Kadochnikov began to claim, that their system is old russian martial art, that they able to prepare a good fighter during four months and instructor - during two years. At the same time they outraged all other martial arts, claimed that oriental martial arts are "unnatural" for western people; but they didn't accept challenges from representatives of oriental martial arts. Several years later their popularity in USSR became very low, but some of them were successful in opening schools in other countries. Usually they claims that this is an old russian martial art, or that this is a system of russian special forces ("spetsnaz". In real life, russian special forces use simplified hand-to-hand combat systems, based on shotokan karate, taekwondo and sambo.

In recent years one of Kadochnikov's students - Retyunskih - developed his own system - ROSS ("Russian Own System of Self-defence".

In the years of separating the USSR several men claimed themselves as "heirs" of styles, which as if existed among ancient russian (ukrainan, belorussian etc) people. As examples it is possible to name "slaviano-goritskaya bor'ba" (slavic-hill wrestling), created by A.Belov from Moscow, "cossack's style", popularized on Ukraina, "buza" and its main "master" - G.Bazlov from Tver', "skobar'" from Sankt-Peterburg and its main "master" A.Gruntovskii, "asilki" ("belorussian ninja" etc etc etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Doesn't mean $hit, of course . . . I just enjoy people's marketing ploys.

Another more informative posting from another forum, by someone who studies with Vasiliev:

While Vasiliev knows of Kadochnikov, and has exposed him to the West on osme of his video footage, and goes so far as to call him a great master, Kadochnikov is not Vasiliev's master, and in fact runs a different system, with a different teaching methodology. I know this from discussion with Vasiliev, from discussions with one of Kadochnikov's students, and also from the following url:

http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/ruseng.html

Kadochnikov is in fact Retyunskih's teacher, or was at one point. This according to the above posted URL, Kadochnikov's students who have also trained with ROSS and systema, as well as Russian soldiers who know of him.

Differences between Kadochnikov, Systema and ROSS as described to me by people ionvolved with all three -

Kadochnikov breaks isolates and analyzes each movement, in terms of strength and biomechanics (his engineering background helped here). Once the student knows how to move, the fighting begins.

Vasiliev shows movement, but follows the method of having variations of fighting. As you fight, he'll look at you and tell you how you can improve. There are also drills, but you are encouraged to improvise right away, as long as the principle involved is the same, the essence of the drill is captured.

ROSS, I am told, is between the extremes of Kadochnikov style and Systema style. Not as rigid with the movements as Kadochnikiv, not sink-or-swim as systema.

Vasiliev himself was in fact SOU (an elite within Spetz) and his Master is called Mikhail Ryabko, who says that he learned starting at 5. He mentions his uncle (former bodygaurd to Stalin) as one of his main mentors, and makes no other claims as to the lineage.

Ryabko is to Vlad as Vlad is to everyone else - this is enough to convince me that Ryabko is the teacher, as he is the only person I have seen who surpasses Vladimir. Ryabko is still active in Spetsnaz, having just returned from Chechnya. He looks forward to retiring this year. I have a picture of him in spetz issue gear, insiginia, weapons, with a bunch of others in a military hangar about to board a Russian military transport plane standing besides Russian fighter planes, (something I imagine is not easy to fake in the USSR or any other country). I also have a spetz combat knife he brought over from Russia when I met the man personally. Based on this, and his absolute mastery over himself and others, including Vladimir, I reckon he is the real deal, and also very nice. I look forward to visiting the Spetz base, as well as Rybko's school, in Russia this summer. There are maybe 100 people in Russia who study Rybko's style, although some of his students have left him, disavowed any conneciton, and started their own (Vlad's loyalty is no surprise to those who know him).

here's a url with a couple of interviews with Rybko:

http://www.mikhailryabko.com/

There are other RMA's out there as well as these three and Sambo, as well as numerous other Russian federations studying Asian arts. Here's a URL with quite a few links for those interested:

http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/russia2.html


John Elliott