Tim, in you Xing-Yi Nei Gong book you mention "harmful" methods of training, among them is repeatedly stressing parts of the body to condition them into weapons. Since one of my primary hand weapons is the phoenix-eye fist, I feel that such conditioning is necessary. Yet, one okinawan master who primarily used this hand-form was very emphatic about NOT developing the hands through traumatic exercises but using forms and Chi'kung alone. I have never heard of a Xing-Yi practitioner pounding heavy bags, but I have read about Tai Chi practitioners developing their "Iron Palm". I have been in real fights where I recieved full kicks to the shin and never felt them. I am told this is because of greatly increased adrenaline levels in my blood during the altercations due to emotional stress. My style develops the hand weapons by striking bags and sand-buckets, but does not stress it while other styles of my system do. Your thoughts on this subject would be appreciated as well as anyone else sharing their experiences.

I think it is all in the methods used to condition your body. There is no improvement in one's physical condition without some 'stress.' Adapting to greater demands is what makes the body stronger. Most teachers of the Internal styles advocate conditioning methods that are gradual and non-injurious (they provide an amount of stress that will result in improvement without causing actual trauma).

Hmmm, are these conditioning methods merely more gradual versions of the ones commonly known or do they have a regimen of their own?

Tim,

That makes it sound like the Internal methods are just slower at achieving the same level of fitness. Is there a qualitative difference in the end result, or do all methods ultimately lead to the same goal?

Steven

Actually, I wasn't referring to 'fitness', I was talking about tempering one part of the body to be used as a weapon (although overall conditioning is also undertaken in a gradual manner).

Not all methods lead to the same goal. Some methods lead to improvement in the pyhsicality (general or specific) without harm and others (usually incorrectly done) lead to short-term gains but ultimately result in injury.

Here are two relatively-safe hand-conditioning methods (but it takes a long time to see great improvement):
(1) Make & use a mini-mak (small, "soft" makiwara) by rolling corrigated cardboard to a thickness of several inches & then taping it (with good, wide, clear tape for instance).
(2) Using good judgement, from time-to-time throughout a day, LIGHTLY strike hard objects (that you can't destroy with such strikes) such as concrete or brick walls, handrails, trees, etc.
One of my instructors did this light striking daily for many years -- and his fist is hard, yet he can still use his hands for fine-detail work (he never harmed his hands). And his light strikes hurt like Hell!
Now, contrast this to many of the karateka (& drunken Marines) who often insist on hitting hard objects powerfully with stiff fingers or tight fists: they break their fingers & hands. I've seen seasoned, old, black-belt karateka walking around with broken fingers because they wanted to break boards (black-belt breaks board, board breaks black-belt's fingers; martial-arts practioner shoves hand into broken glass, broken glass cuts up hand, maybe even some nerves...all unnecessary risks taken by some).

I was not part of any system when I statred my Phoenix eye training. I have heard it refered to with many names such as tiger's tooth (TT). I use tiger's tooth because it is just that. Ne ways, I read forums for years before I got down to the nitty gritty. I originally started my research because I fractured my middle knuckle punching a wooden door (don't ask), and was looking for an alternative way to strike. I came across literature that talked about the TT. I tried it out on some friends very softly and they reacted as if I put force behind my strike. So I thought they were BS'n I had them try it on me. Boy did it feel deadly.

So I had an iron palm bag made for me, filled it with mung beans and made my own dit da jow. I did all the research for EVERYTHING. I felt that no matter what art I learned if I could incorpaorate the TT into it I could make it more effective. I like to use it in the armpit, rib, floating rib area.

To train this I use my dit da jow about 30 minutes before, i strike my iron palm bag 25 times each hand, then when my hand doesn't ache anymore I go up by 25 strikes per hand. I strike softly until my hands feel "warmed up" then I go full force. I then shake my hands about every 10-15 hits to get the "bugs out". Then use a hot dit da jow soak, usually until the heat goes away.

Sorry so long. HI

Kenneth,
Basically dont hit your hand against a wall 1,000 times a day for a year...

Xing Yi says not to hit wooden objects... but I also practice Wing Chun and must use a wooden dummy, but Wing Chun says not to hit the dummy either... see where I am going.

Ever Heard of an Indian Karate Master called Hussaini(Shihan Hussaini, IshinRyu Exer-Kai India) who had 111 vehicles driven over the back of his palm and then used the same hands to break 111 bricks/tiles??

Now that is what i call true strength.

And then someone punched him in the nose and broke it?