I am very interested in how internal sytlists approach the following aspects of training. Knife work and realsitic training methods that seem to have risen in popularity recently. I am not trying to be controversial, provocative or disrespectful. Just a genuine interest in how you boys do look at these apescts of training.

Realistic training meaning?

The problem with that term is the debate eventually degenerates to this:

"So, do you ICMA people do 'realistic training methods'"?

"What, you mean like sanshou? hell yeah"

"No, I mean realistic, like all out"

"Uhm, you will lose if you spar any other way"

"No, you're not listening to me, I mean realistic, like BJJ, not standing or fruity circle walking"

"uh..."

repeat inanity ad nauseaum.

It would be interesting to hear other's opinions on IMA with respect to realistic defence empty hand against a knife.

Realsitic defence:

#1 - always expect you're going to get cut. No matter how good you are ...

#2 - run away

#3 - don't play. Your life is in danger - that changes things re: legal definitions of resonable force

#4 - no time to get idealistic about purity and tradition. Grab a handful of coins from your pocket, throw them in their face, follow in real quick. Clap hands togeather explosively ... lots of tricks

#5 - footwork. If you've room to use it then if they can't reach they can't cut (or course if you've really got this room, then #2 is preferred). If they're really intent on damage, they overreach and their balance is already gone. Help them over a bit and don't hang around to try anything else


but what if ... (usual nonsense) - you're attacked from behind in a lift with no room for fancy footwork and there are three of them?
You hope your training was pretty bloody good, and die as well as you can. Of course, you could just try doing what they say - proper form of address would be "sir" I believe

Shoot them

H20 Dragon, that makes no sense. Wrestling is the last thing to do in a situation where a guy has a knife.

... as in bang bang

I know, hee hee.

Boy? BOY? Hell, I'd be your daddy if that dog hadn't beaten me over the fence! Careful how you throw terms like 'boys' around after saying you being respectful!

Internal deals with knives like any other art. With training, skill and luck you might only get cut on the arms and will be able to throw your attacker. (a couple of Tim's past students have been through knife attacks). One of his current, crazier students is well aquainted with knife fighting folks in the Philipines- they say the best defense is a shirt or towel wrapped around both forearms and
being used as a catch-and-wrap device.

But in general... guys who MEAN TO CUT YOU are not going to flash a knife and do the whole Rebel Without a Cause dance routine allowing a chance for their opponent to 'get ready'. The knife is small, held tight in the hand and what you think is a punch to the belly later turns out to have laid you open. (or, like O.J., someone grabs you from behind and slits your throat).

I've seen footage of a couple of real knife attacks. The puss using the knife knows he's a coward and does not want anyone to see the knife-
it happens fast and someone with a knife attacker mentality will make it as unnoticable as they can.
Just like those idiots in cars who think if they hang their arms WAY down out of their window no one will notice the wad of paper or cigarette butt they're polluting the world with. It would be great if we could get those knifing wusses to only go after idiots.

I must stress training awareness of your environment and situation at all times. You've got to know where the exits, escape routes, barriers, obstacles, objects (that can be used as weapons), positions (of people). You've got to know how to put yourself in the best strategic advantage when sh*t hit's the fan.

The next I want to stress training your intent and recognizing other peoples intent. You've got to have a feel for what people may do by their body language. Body language gives away intent. Your intent should be focused in surviving the confrontation with the least possible injury to yourself. Like they say in the Philippines, once they pull a knife it's "Patayan", to the death or serious injury.

Here are some rules in fighting someone with a weapon: 1. If they can't breath they can't fight 2. If they can't move they can't fight 3. If you take away their weapon the can't fight 4. If they can't see they can't fight

Meynard,
I'm a little confused about your first point 1: if they can't breath they can't fight.

i'm a competitive freediver so I can fight for a very short time without breathing, or lie face down and immobile in a pool for quite a long time without breathing (perhaps I could use this to play aquatic possum faced with evil armed lifeguards)

I just don't know how you stop someone else from breathing without being butchered first.

I know a few other freedivers who have such impressive lung capacity they could probably just suck all the air out any room they were in. Or if I had a chicken I could probably throw it in their face and explode it with my chi then laugh as I watch them choke on the feathers.

But I don't usually carry chickens around with me.

am I missing something obvious?

thanks
Ed

I agree with the words of robt, found his ideas very down to earth.

And to Bob#2, being English we use the term boy or boys in anything other than a disrespectful manner. I believe our friends over the pond like to be refered to as men, so sorry if toes were stood on.

Perhaps what I meant to suggest in my original post was ideas or methods around adrenal/stress based training. This is because I recently took the decsion to stop my taiji training as I was not getting what I perceive to be realistic and adrenal based training. I loved all the form work, pushing hands, but my questions were not being answered. Shame, as I really enjoyed my time in the internal arts, but dont think, for me, my training gave me the appropriate methods and tools to get the job done.

kind regards

Paul

I think Meynard was referring to attacking the neck and throat.

Ed,

I'm talking about tiring them out, make them expend energy and basically gas out. (Right Ron?) You try to expend as little energy while making them expend as much energy. You also need to do things that make breathing difficult. Hit the throat, the ribs, the solar plexus. The one that gasses out first will lose. That's why cardiovascular work is an important part of training.

Paul,

The truth is you have to be able to run faster and further than your attacker. Hence, rule #1.

Okay, really you've got to get somebody to attack you using a rubber or wooden knife. Then you can play with ways to enter safely in a superior angle. Once you've entered you need to be able to control the person from a superior position. Entering is the hard part. That's why my cousins like to use the clothes wrap around the knife concept. Or you can learn how to use improvised weapons like your belt,shirt, pens...whatever. Carry a Surefire flashlight and blind them first, rule #4. Then kick them in the shin as hard as possible, rule #2. Then you might go for rule #3 or just apply rule #1 by running, more than likely it will be hard for them to chase you.

Okay I have to add rule #5 Use improvised weapons.

Whatever...just play with the ideas. I'm no expert, but that's what I would do.

It looks like I can do all the above without IMA.

Its hard to practice for knife attacks because of there often frenzied nature, but here are a few pointers I've picked up.

1. Because of the stress invovled its better to adapt methods you are familiar and comfortable with rather than have specific knife fighting tactics

2. With the above in mind from Taiji perspective the only major change to be made to counter a knife strike rather than a hand strike is not to stick and adhere but to use more energy and strike or bump knife arm away to give time and space to counter. Take care to protect inside of forearms.

3. Don't attempt to lock or control knife arm, its too easy to get slashed, but rather strike the arm directly or the head or a vulnerable part of torso e.g kidneys, floating rib to get attacker to drop knife. Also found a good low kick to knee effective. Something to experiment with.

4. Learn how to use a knife yourself. Familiarity doesn't neccessarily breed contempt, but an appreciation for how effective and dangerous a weapon it is, in skilled and unskilled hands alike. You should never suffer from overconfidence in a knife fight.

Thanks
I was missing something obvious

Ed

On IMA training and knife defence. As has been pointed out, a lot of the advice here can be used without any knowledge of IMA.

Here I have to agree with Bob#2 and Meynard. Bob as in most serious knife attacks the knife isn't shown to you before its used (if you see it, they're probably not that intent on using it - don't take it as a rule though). Meynard as situational awareness plays an important part (paricularly given Bob's point)

If you have trained well, then your reaction should be immediate, spontaneous, and natural (i.e. you do what is best for you - not the "technique" some knife fighting instructor showed you last week: and you stay relaxed and do not have the adrenaline dump or tension. For me the dump happens _after_ the event). Partly this is having drilled the basics really well - posture, balance, center, simple drills (for me that is a couple of strikes, footwork).

As said above, don't go for the fancy disarm of the knife by controlling the knife-hand (just my opinion). Wardoff, or move so it misses, and go for sensitive areas or the core-body. Make sure your technique counts as ineffective finish might mean you don't get a second chance. For me that means in and then a palm strike. Then run.

How is this internal? Its the way you move, how you move, and the ability to turn their chest inside out with a super-chi strike (or it could just be a hydrostatic pressure wave transfering through body tissue faster than the tissue can deform)

RT

Without controlling the knife arm you will be slashed. Controlling the arm from a safe position is easier than trying to strike at pinpoint targets. You absolutely must neutralize (even for a moment) the threat before trying some kind of strike that you hope will make him drop his weapon. You must limit his options to hurt you. I'm not talking about fancy disarms. I propose simple leverages that can effectively control the whole body not just the knife hand. Worry about disarming when you have full control, Rule #2. The idea is that of gaining position before attempting a submission (disarm).

You have to keep in mind that a person who uses a knife may have more than one knife. I always carry two. Striking is not the best way unless you have something to strike with that keeps you at a safe distance. Find a stick or improvise a weapon. Otherwise it's like sticking your hand in a cuisinart. You will be slashed.

If you do strike first makes sure your strikes impair his senses, rule #4 or make him change his priorities. A good nut kick will change anyone's priorities right away.

Good luck!

"don't go for the fancy disarm of the knife by controlling the knife-hand"

does not mean do not control balance and the knife via the arm, hand or whatever. It does mean that I personally wouldn't focus all my attention on it in the counter.

It's the person who has the knife. Sure, take care of the knife - but apply the technique to the person. (Seen too much unrealsitic knife defence stuff. During most of which I have succeded in "cutting" the person trying the teh technique. Mostly quite badly)

I know this is what you are saying too Meynard, but I just thought I'd clarrify