I saw in an old post (talking about the rules used in the Shen Wu tournaments) where Tim mentioned that if you punch someone in the head with an ungloved fist the chances are you are going to break your own hand.

That started me thinking and I realized my training maybe fundamentally screwed up.
Assume the following are true:
How you train is how you will react in a fight.
You train western boxing style to jab/cross/hook to the head with closed fist.
In a fight you will do the same.
And you will either miss (which maybe good luck) or connect (which most likely will break your hand and may or may not down the bad guy).

Humm, what to do?

I find jabbing with a closed fist much quicker and more accurate than trying to substitute some other hand formation (like a tiger claw). Is that just because I am used to jabbing with closed fist or is there some biomechanical reason that open handed jabs are slower. The general feeling I have is if my fingers are not closed into a fist/ball then they are "in the way" and slowing things down as the jab goes out and back.

Any ideas or thoughts from anyone?

Take care,
Brian

Brian,
First off, if you can land your jabs and other closed fist punches right on the mark every time, your hand (properly conditioned) should be safe. The problem is, all your opponent has to do is duck his head a few inches and you connect with forehead/skull, then the danger of damaging the hand becomes very real. The other problem is landing your closed fist on the opponent's elbows when he covers (although we practice closed fist punches to the body, there is still the danger of a busted hand from striking the elbow).

I think if your practice open hand strikes a little more, they will become as natural as closed fist strikes for you (actually, they should inherently be more natural, people have to be taught to make a proper fist, everyone knows instinctively how to slap). The mechanics for delivery are virtually the same. One other advantage of palm strikes is that you will not have to worry about lifting the elbow when you throw hooks, you can throw from a greater distance without looping the blow or losing power by lifting the elbow as in a closed fist strike.

It's interesting to look at the old Internal styles and the structure of striking weapons. In Xingyiquan for example, the original Pi Quan (Splitting Fist) of Five Element Xingyiquan was a closed fist hammer strike which protected the knuckles from injury. Later, the strike was changed to an open palm in many styles; all designed to protect the hands when striking.

Tim,

That's an interesting historical note on Pi! Thanks. I'll now include hammering blows in my practice of same.

Brian,

I concure with Tim; perhaps the following will give you a little more insight:

I've known some karateka (Karate practitioners) who've used fisted knuckle blows to the jaw or chin -- accurately, in real fights -- without problems (knocking out their opponents). Often when I see an old karateka with a busted hand it's from a board/brick/ice-breaking practice in which they goofed; so there is a danger when striking hard surfaces with your knuckles, or with stiff fingers in an open-handed blow.

There's always some danger of hurting the hand that you're striking with -- especially if your blow is travelling fast from a long distance towards a hard target & your hand is stiff. You can minimize danger to your hands in a number of ways (other than to not use them):

1) keep extended fingers either completely relaxed or semi-relaxed & somewhat curved (as in a typical Judo Chop as oppossed to a typical Karate Chop); I once hit the edge of a door with the mid-back of my hand while following thru with a whipping blow -- my hand was relaxed & to my surprise no harm was done (I got lucky, but a relaxed hand allows some give for the bones so that they don't break as easy).

2) Use palm strikes (heel of palm, flat of palm, cupped palm, & side of palm) as a substitute.

3) Condition your hands; but be reasonable in how you do this (don't go jabbing your hands into broken glass & whatnot as our main objective is protecting the hands; I add this 'cause I've known people who've conditioned their hands this way: ouch -- and long-term damage too); use a padded surface with some flex, or use such thick padding that the padding allows for sufficient flex, or use a bean/BB bag. Still another way is to LIGHTY tap hard objects with your knuckles throughout the day; over time your light tapping will strengthen your bones & you'll be able to tap harder without any damage. Still, if you're going to use your knuckles, then also consider...

4) Strike from close distances when using your knuckles (like in Bruce Lee's 1-to-no-inch punching); keep your hand relaxed until either very near or directly on target (so that missing your target is no longer a consideration), THEN drive your knuckles into (& "through" the target.

5) Use method above on soft targets as often as possible to further lower risks. For example, rather than aiming for the jaw or chin (which you may still hit if you don't first get your "hand weapon" close enough to your intended target as follows), aim for the throat/neck area (if it's a serious self-defense situation).

6) In general, SLOW DOWN by using your footwork to evade danger & thus give you time to choose & adjust to your target.

There's a nice anecdotal discussion of this 'problematic' with regard to internal martial arts on Chip Ellis homepage (requires PDF-reader):

http://www.speakeasy.org/~chipper/Writings/Fists%20of%20Fury.pdf


FWIW,

Janus

Thanks to you all for the information/advice,
It sounds like the best course for me is to simply start re-training myself to use open palms.

Anyway doctors say that learning new things in your old age is good for your brain. Keeps you from getting senile. So I can improve my brain and save my hands at the same time.

take care and thanks again,
Brian

Brian,

Right! Bones eventually get brittle with age, so adapting palm strikes is perhaps the best idea. I had forgotten to mention that point above -- thanks for the reminder.

Great Point, Mike,
If you hit an old person you can shatter bones and appear to have super human strength.

Yeah Bob #2,

But sometimes those ol' geezers hit back -- & hard too!

There once was an old (60's), Xing-Yi student of Italian descent here in so. California. A knife-wielding thug accosted him. When the police arrived this Xing-Yi practitioner was speaking excitedly in Italian. The thug was so broken up that the police just assumed that a truck had hit him (hit-&-run). His daughter arrived on the scene & decided it was best not to translate what he was saying. I don't think he hurt himself at all.

My ol' adoptive grandpa (a US Army WWI veteran & Iowa farmboy who used to bale hay) pushed me once when he was in his eighties -- I flew across the entire width of the room. Man, could he uproot! He didn't hurt himself (he used his palms) -- he just hurt my pride (& opened my eyes some).

And kids can be tough too (esp. when on fire)...

I just don't see how you do it Bob #2 -- you're my hero!

you can hit someone with a finger jab without hurting yourself. You dont even need conditioning. You just have to pivot your wrist in a direction other than the one you are hitting in and make sure your opponent cant defend.Its that weird wing chun principle where you only jab if you tried to punch but the person catches your forearm or blocks it inches away from your target and you just renew ur attack by extending your fingers and giving a short jab to a soft area while pivoting your wrist.

We have had several officers injure their hands punching people.

From a tactical perspective, it may also injure your shooting hand which is not a good thing if the confrontation escalates to where you need a firearm.

I personally prefer the open hand. I also think it allows better strike-takedown combinations in the same move.

Many of the strikes in the xingyi 5 elements use a closed fist. Might one practice the forms and applications of all of these with open hand strikes?

Jim,
None of the closed fist strikes in Xingyiquan are aimed at the head. All of the head blows in all of the forms are done with an open hand. You shouldn't have any trouble punching the body with a closed fist with proper training.

I really don't see much of a problem with breaking hands when punching the head. I punch a heavy bag a lot with bare hands. It keeps the knuckles strong. I see a lot more of a problem with breaking a wrist because of weak forearm muscles. Also, a fist gives you an inch more of reach than an open palm strike and when you palm strike your fingers are outstretched and can be grabbed and break. (Or they can just break from hitting something by accident)

Mont,
Although punching a heavy bag is great training for the fist and wrist, it can't be compared to a human skull.

If you want a more realistic idea of what punching someone in the head will feel like, punch a bowling ball.

Tim,

I have to disagree with you about the comparison between a bowling ball and a human skull. Human bones have a good bit of stretch to them and while they are *very* strong for their weight and size they aren't that hard. Also, the human skull is covered in skin and is hollow with the brain surrouned by fatty tissue to protect it. The bones in your hand are just as very close to the same density and strength relative to their size as the skull but not as thick and without the advantage of being in a rounded shape to minimize damage)

Someone can break their hand by punching a skull but I think anyone who knows how to punch and trains their knuckles for a while can withstand punching a skull with no damage. Also, the human skull has some give to it and the kneck muscles and such will cushion both the opponent's brain and your hand on impact.

MFC

What you have said has some valid points. but broken hands are common even among western style boxers. Often it is the lesser bones/joints which are broken, the ones which are not so much 'conditioned' as the larger ones. In a moving, dynamic situation, you can't count on landing a blow with correct alignment and easily end up with less than optimum shots. Supposedly some Chinese boxers used to say use the open hand to hard areas and the fist to soft areas. I think that makes sense. Reportedly even Bruce Lee spoke of having swollen hands from head punching.

Bruce Lee was pretty concerned about toughening his hands I believe. I read somewhere that whenever he was caught in California traffic when driving somewhere he would pound on a hand conditioning board he carried in his car.

Also, I saw a pro boxer break his hand once during a fight. It wasn't the fist itself as I would assume that it would be well enough conditioned to be almost impossible to break on a skull when the boxer is wearing gloves. He was getting his ass handed to him and he fell down against the ropes and broke his hand when he broke his fall with it.

Has anyone else read about the great bare-knuckle fighters in Europe from the last few centuries (especially during the 1800s)? They fought bare-knuckle with rules similar to NHB except a lot tougher.

Rounds could last from 1 minute to half an hour depending on what the bell guy felt like. Fights sometimes went hours. If you were knocked down your corner could get in the ring and had one minute to revive you so you could continue fighting. Wrestling moves and Judo like throws and such were allowed too. The fighters tried to take the shots to their forearms or dodge them all together unlike modern day pro boxers who have gloves to minimize the impact of a glancing blow the head allowing them to slip punches and take more without having to worry too much. Gosh, modern day rules seem so nice compared to this!

Has anyone thought of the finger jab to the eye? You can't really train for this though on a partner but I've heard it moves faster than a regular jab. I read about it in a Jun Faun kickboxing book and in Harry Wong's Dynamic Strength book that Tim mentioned in another post.

Mont,

I had a friend who had done traditional hard-style hand/knuckle conditioning. He was highly trained. Great fighter. Experienced street fighter. One night he gets in a fight with a nobody. He throws a perfect two-knuckle punch at the guys face. The idiot flinched and moved his head if you can believe it. My friends small finger ended up smashing into his skull. And while it may not be a bowling ball, it was hard enough to permanately deform my buds small finger. So much for those hudreds of hours spent hardening his knuckles and fist.

I have a friend who was in a fight during 5th grade or something. (Maybe it was kindergarten? I really don't know except that he wasn't in highschool yet) He now only has 3 knuckles when he clenches his right fist. The knuckle between the pinky and middle finger must have shattered because it isn't there anymore.

However, he had no hand conditioning at that time. I will continue to train all my knuckles, my entire hand actually and my entire forearm and elbow to take blows without breaking.

I think a lot of this also has to do with the person's god-given hands. Some people have big, muscular hands that can take a beating fine. Some people have small, bony hands that break easily. I've seen people with really bony hands. I think mine are in the middle. However, since I'm only 16, I'll count on the fact that mine will end up like my grandfather's, fathers, and uncle. Quite large and heavily muscled hands and forearms. The kind that bare-knuckle fighters of the past had.

Hi,

If you are interested in the old bare knuckle fighters, go to www.wutangpca.com and check out some of Franks articles. Somewhere on the site, there is also a radio show that he and his boxing coach taped discussing John L.Sullivan. It's pretty good stuff. Thanks,
Josh

The site with the radio show on it is www.vernewilliamsinterviews.com

Josh

Another friend of mine lives in Reading, PA. Its basically one big Puerto Rican ghetto. He's in highschool and wrestles and plays baseball and football. He gets in street fights all the time (though most are just in the hallways of his school). Thinking of this topic I asked him if he's ever injured his fist during a fight.

He said, "Sure, I broke my pinky up pretty bad a month ago. But his head looked a lot worse. I've been in hundreds of fights, sooner or later your hand will get hurt no matter what. Besides, I can throw a baseball 82 mph, I hit pretty hard and I've not lost yet."

He's never done hand conditioning exercises. His martial arts experience consists of wrestling and street fighting and he's a strong believer in using one's fists to hit your opponent's skull.

He also advocates the "three knuckle" landing that Bruce Lee, Jack Dempsey and others have recommended above the two knuckle karate landing. Anything else will break your hand he says. (He's also a big fan of UFC)

By the way, I've choked him into submission at least a dozen times. The last 5 submission wrestling scraps i've done with him lasted less than 30 seconds each with me winning easily. He can still beat me at traditional wrestling though. But remember, I've got absolutley no wrestling/submission/grappling training. I improvise my techniques on the fly.

My friend even conceded that the last wrestling tournament (last month) he won he took a technique I had used on him to beat him to force his last two opponents to submit. "Its not totally legal but the ref couldn't tell."

I just got the book Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano and I've been eagerly reading it. I've noticed my "technique" is an improvised kinda Sleeve Wheel Choke (sode-guruma-jime) meets Thrust Choke (tsukkomi-jime). I also noticed I've used an improvised reverse cross lock (gyaku-juji-jime) and in improvised triangular choke (sankaku-jime).

I Gotta go with Tim on this one Mont,

While all you have stated is quite true, when in a true conflict you have to look at risk factors. You must admit one runs a much greater risk of injuring their hand with a knuckle punch when compared to a good strong heal of the palm slap or even a ridge hand chop. It's great to condition your fist, I do the same, but when hitting for the crainium an open hand is safer and in many cases just as effective. OFC one will always need to use the fist sometime, but like Tim said, It must be well trained and even then, it still has inheirent risks.

If you are really looking for a devestating head shot look to the elbow. A freind o fmine who was quite the scrapper around Detroit used his elbows almost exclusively and rarley was bested. An Elbow to the head, or even a strong forearm, can seriously damage an atacker. Blunt trauma and concussions are very likley. not to say that landing oone is a peice of cake. you are giving up alot of reach. but it's great at close range where tons of street encounters are likley to happen.

The bowlingball analogy is not too far off. True, the skull is covered with skin and has some flex to it. The skin is very thin and delecate, hense your friends statement abt the other guy. The thickness or relative hardness of the skull is not really the issue. The skull is designed to protect the brain from impact and to that end is extremely tough. It's all physics and Bio mechanics, the skull is a collection of arches and domes that can receive a tremendous amount of abuse. The hand, being so intricate and fine in its utilit and muscle structure, is significantly more fragile.

This is not to say that one should never punch. but the risks of injuring your hand are noteably greater if you are going bone to bone or knuckle to skull.