I have read a couple of different places that 'chokes' are the quickest way to end a fight, except a knockout, of course. I would like to see a discussion about attacking the windpipe vs. the carotid artery in self-defense situations. Any takers?

Actually, in most cases, strangles will end a fight more quickly than chokes, and they are far less likely to cause permanent injury or death. A strangle (sealing the blood supply to the brain), properly applied, usually results in unconsciousness in a few seconds.

A choke (closing off the trachea so no air can be inspired)usually takes longer to cause unconsciousness (as most people can hold their breath much longer than the few seconds it takes to complete a strangle). The risk of collapsing the windpipe is also a consideration with a choke, therefore the choke is potentially lethal.

Tim,
I had heard that using a strangle also ran the risk of causing a clot and that a "sleeper" could be fatal as a result. Have you heard anything like this?

are there more then just wind pipe and caritid artery chokes/strangles, are there any other arterys that can be seald up to make some one pass out?

Tim wrote "...IN MOST CASES, strangles will end a fight more quickly than chokes..." (emphasis mine), which of course implies that quick chokes exist (...& they do... & they are very dangerous & therefore are done very slowly &/or not brought to completion during practice; for some chokes done fast are also neck-breakers).

Also be aware that some strangles & chokes often require finesse (coordination). Some require a lot of finesse, so much practice time may be required to get it right every time; and some strangles & chokes may be difficult to apply if you have a bad back (which you could get during a fight); so rule of thumb in a fight: if you're having difficulty with a particular technique, then quickly switch to another technique (& talk with your instructor later). And if you switch techniques like this during practice, then be sure to let your instructor know that you had difficulty with the first technique (for you may have missed a fine point or two or three) -- you'll get more out of practice this way.

Walter,
ANY martial arts technique that necessitates using force against some part of an opponent's body is potentially dangerous.

I've heard the arguments that strangles could cause this or that fatal result. The fact is, in over 100 years of Judo competitions (where competitors are routinely stangled) no one has ever died from techniques which involve strangles (although there have been deaths from other causes).

Compare this with deaths due to blows to the head (in boxing for example). When you analyze the effectiveness/potential lethality ratio for strangles, they come up at the top of the list for safe yet effective techniques (I'll put it this way, I'd much rather have Rickson Gracie put me to sleep with a strangle hold than have Mike Tyson punch me in the head).

Here, Here,

Rickson Gracie knows when to let up (so that you don't perish); Mike Tyson on the other hand most likely won't hold back (& he may make a snack out of you after he kills you -- or before even).

Tim,
Thanks for clarifying, I wasn't trying to start an argument, just wanted more information. I appreciate the concept of control as much as the next guy, maybe even more than most. My question was an attempt to clarify a grey area in my knowledge in re safeness of techniques, and your answer has done that,
Walter

Walter,
Actually, if I had to chose one technique as the "best" (taking efficiency, high percentage of success, measure of control, safety to myself and the opponent into consideration), it would be the rear naked strangle (or 'Lion Kill' as the Brazilians call it).

Tim,
With any luck I'll learn it sometime in January.
Walter

The Stomach 9 point on the carotid artery usually knocks down/slows down people. In western medicine terms it's the barorecepters in the carotid artery that, when the artery is slapped, it sends a spurt of blood (like stepping on a water hose)and a rapid message is sent to the brain that the blood pressure is too high and it lowers the blood pressure. The blood pressure is normal, however, so it's dropping it too low. Most people drop like a rock or stand there like an idiot and you can take your pleasure with them! Not a strike to be practiced as it can cause damage, now or later. Easy for kids to learn if someone tries to carry them off.

Tim,

What are the most effective places to STRIKE an opponent in order to produce unconsciousness?

Steven

MFM,

You may want to get this answer by e-mail only.

None of this stuff is secret; but I for one just don't want to give such information away to anybody browsing the board (please let any thugs out there do there own research -- outside of this discussion board -- or remain ignorant).

I believe (& I think Tim does also) that easy knockout & neck-breaking information is best given in private -- & only to those who seem well-intentioned.

MFM,
So that Mike can sleep soundly at night, I won't go into too much detail, but like he says, none of this information is secret (besides, the thugs in my academy already know this stuff).

Unconsciousness can be caused by several means. Cutting off the flow of oxygen (most often caused by chokes, but can also be caused by pressure to the upper abdomen or a blow to the solar plexus), cutting off blood supply to the brain (strangles), causing the blood pressure to drop (strikes to areas around the neck), trauma to the brain (usually involving blows to the chin or head) and twisting the brain stem (usually caused by blows or landings which cause the head to turn sharply to a great degree).

So, the most effective places to strike to cause unconsciousness are the neck and head (and some areas are more effective than others).

Thanks Tim,

I'll sleep well tonight. Hey! I know some of this stuff. Who you callin' a thug?

Tim,

I thought that question might get a reaction from somebody. If you want me to e-mail you, I will. But, I think it's silly. After all, the real "thugs" already know how to knock someone out, probably learned by trial and error. They beat people up all the time, and not usually with bare hands.

Anyway, I haven't been in a fight, since 5th grade. I'm asking you what really works, because I trust you not to bullsh*t me. That way I won't have to go out and 'sucker punch' a bunch of people to find out for myself. (OK, I wouldn't really do that, but you get the point.)

I have a couple of books that illustrate the energy meridians of Chinese medicine and the 'pressure points' associated with them, including Practical Chin Na, which you translated. Do the areas that you teach to strike around the head and neck correspond to specific points, like Stomach 9 mentioned above?

Sincerely,
Steven

P.S. I don't really care whether Mike sleeps well, or not.

Well Thanks A Lot MFM,

Look; I think that you're a cool guy & I believe Tim feels the same. I believe that both Tim & I would be glad to share the info on this subject matter with you (being as you're one of Tim's students seemingly in good standing); but not with just anybody. And here's why (in part):

All the thugs that will ever be have most likely not yet been created -- so they're exists some not-yet-educated ones; some may not yet even be motivated. So why give out info -- on a friggin' silver platter -- to educate &/or motivate such? It's good policy (as an instructor) to first get to know your students before teaching them how to hurt others badly.

For example, I once taught some kids their first Karate lesson in Compton, California (& it was the last lesson I taught there as well after what I saw). Immediately afterwards I witnessed a girl that I had taught -- a girl that I thought was meek & sweet (& in need of self-defense skills in such a rough neighborhood) -- try to take the head off of the smallest boy in class. As it turns out, she wasn't satisfied having merely struck focus mitts & kick pads in class: she wanted to test the results full-force on a live target! Apparently I had unwittingly supplied the motivation & education that helped create a thug mentality.

So, remembering that this forum is open to be read by all (from the most sensible sage to the most criminally insane -- after all, I read it -- as well as by young & old), some things are best kept unwritten here. Please think about it.

Learn from my mistake. And please become caring: let me get some sleep. Yawn.

Mike,

I'm actually having trouble sleeping tonight, myself. But, not because of this topic. Since I'm up, anyway, I figured I would plead my case a little more.

You previously stated, "be aware that some strangles and chokes often require finesse (coordination). Some require a lot of finesse, so much practice time may be required..." I would argue that the same is true for the striking techniques, as well. I doubt that any 'thug' who is not motivated enough to make a trip to Borders and research the vital areas, on his own, will ever develop the requisite skill necessary to apply the knockout against a resisting opponent. In addition to the ability to generate sufficient power, entry/set-up and controlling the opponent takes much practice in stand-up, just like on the ground. Not to mention, being ablt to actually hit the exact spot where you were aiming.

I still say your attitude is a throwback to the 'old days,' when rival martial arts schools kept their techniques a 'secret' from one another. Who cares, when everybody's got a gun, anyway?

Steven

P.S. Nothing personal about the sleeping thing, OK.

MFM,

I understand your point -- it's somewhat valid (...but...). I like to err on the side of caution (the last straw for me was when that lil' gal pursued her classmate with vicious intent after class; did I mention that I was a slow learner?).

You've probably found that some set-ups are easier than others: some work like magic -- like a breeze; and you'll find some knockouts & neck breaks are just as easy to apply after certain of these set-ups. I just don't want to make it too easy for the "bad guys" out there (as I've been close to predators such as rapists & child molesters who had sought & received martial training; I've been around thugs/robbers while they discussed martial concepts such as how to sucker-punch/take-out someone quickly; and apparently prisons offer some of the best such training around -- and the good Lord knows they have plenty of time to practice there).

One can learn -- & learn well -- about such things as knockouts & neck-breaks without ever looking at a book. One can easily get this info in person from an instructor willing to give it (and one can get an excellent idea of what & how to do things by reading a discussion board -- esp. if someone highly skilled in relaying ideas in writing -- such as Tim -- is posting the info.)

If we had a restricted-access section on this board only for people that Tim already knew & trusted -- and if I was one of the recipients of this trust, then I would gladly post what I know on the subject & search other postings to learn more about what I don't yet know about the subject.

Perhaps I'm a bit of a mental (case, er) throw-back, but I can understand why some Chinese martial-arts instructors had closed-door classes in which the majority of their students weren't invited (esp. new students who's morals were still in question). In general -- from my understanding thus far about northern Chinese instruction -- an instructor first looked for desire to learn, then once that prerequisite was met the instructor attempted to ascertain the morals & abilities of a student before much of the finer points of an art was relayed to the student.

Screening an audience is just prudent when dealing with some info.

If you think about it, Tim doesn't recklessly post, write, or video information for the general public that can be extremely harmful to society in the wrong hands. There's already more than enough problems out there without having to add to the problem. The problem is neither firearms, blades, blunt striking instruments, nor deadly hand-to-hand knowledge; rather the problem is such in the possession of people of ill-intent (some of which may buy or steal books & videos, and even read this open-forum discussion board).

Oh, I thought the ongoing thing about sleeping was fun -- so I ran with it (tongue-in-cheek of course); people tell me that when it comes to me being a comedian, I should keep my day job (I agree, but that doesn't stop me from trying to break into another field). Later

MFM,
We don't talk about hitting specific 'points' as much as general areas. For most knockouts, you don't have to be too exact, just in the neighborhood with sufficient force at the right angle. We can go over the set ups and strikes I like best when I see you. It's difficult to write about specific techniques on the net.

You're right, 'Practical Chin Na' has the information in detail, as well as many other books.

Thanks Tim. I'm looking forward to it. We should probably restrict ourselves to set-ups using the Piercing (Chuan), Chopping (Kai Guo), and Crashing (Zhuang) Hand Methods of the Gao style. These are the only movements that I have really practiced enough to 'earn money,' as you say. One more question: As a general rule, are twisting/breaking attacks to the neck easier to pull off, while standing, than strangles?

Mike,
I'm a little perturbed by your interference in this matter. Although, I doubt you actually influenced Tim's responses. I'm beginning to understand why Meynard feels the way he does about you. You are dead wrong. Last night, I was reviewing Tim's Chin Na tape (part 1) and several neck twisting techniques are shown. Very clear instruction is given to twist along TWO AXES AT ONCE, or at a 45 degree angle. Tim then cautions the viewer to be VERY CAREFUL in practice with your partner. What do you think a 'thug' would do with that information? Also, while demonstrating the 'Turning Over the Golden Oven' technique, Tim describes where to hit the base of the opponent's skull - from the rear just below the ear line. He then says that such a blow, delivered with sufficient force, will knock someone out or cause a concussion. Hmmm?!?

MFM,
I think strangles are easier to pull of than neck twisting techniques while standing because the holds afford more control. Besides, neck twisting techniques are extremely dangerous and strangles put the opponent to sleep with little risk of excessive injury.

MFM,

What "inference" perturbed you is beyond me. Would you please point out this perturbing inference? I'm curious how anyone (with good intentions -- such as yourself) could have been perturbed with my last post.

Regardless of all you've mentioned above, there are things that Tim has not shown (or explained)on those tapes that would ensure neck breaks (doing things as shown in the tape is more likely to inflict strain on the neck muscles, perhaps give one a bit of a whiplash-like feeling, etc.; Glen -- who has a strong neck & was Tim's partner in the video you mentioned -- wasn't harmed at all, now was he? Think about it; there's more to breaking necks than knowing about the two axis stuff which is common knowledge for most if not all joint manipulations; nevertheless, Tim's cautionary note concerning neck manipulations was & is prudent).

Also, Tim hasn't yet made the point of where & how to hit for some of the easiest of knockouts. He's mentioned no more than what's fairly common knowledge in most western boxing books -- so far (& I believe with good reason; I may be wrong). Yes, much of this info is available on videos & in books -- & with some research it can all be found; but so can info on bomb manufacture (& some of it is in error & will get you killed if you try it; likewise, not all "self-defense" books & videos are equal -- not everything is practical for serious defense situations & you may have to find that out the hard way).

I've had some good instructors -- such as Tim; I've learned some things from them (not as much as I could or should have as I'm a slow learner; but I've learned some nonetheless). I'm fairly well read on self-defense & military literature. I've special forces & veterans-of-foreign-wars buddies who've used hand-to-hand techniques to kill -- who've survived combat to tell me their stories & give me some points on self-defense. So, I come off sounding like a bit of a know-it-all (perhaps due to my writing style, or lack thereof); but I physically know a lot less than what I post, because I'm often posting the (paraphrased) words of those above mentioned good instructors & buddies, and even the words from what seems to me to be sensible books (or the most sensible parts of books) that I've read. The rest has been based upon my own experience. And as for my own opinions: there my current opinions -- not always correct & always subject to change as I learn more.

As for Meynard, I thought we were having some friendly banter -- but apparently that was one of my wrong opinions. I've posted before that if anybody doesn't like reading my posts, then just skip reading 'em. But that seems to be a problem for some. Since I like to be helpful, and since I'm apparently not succeeding here, I will make life simple for you...

Beyond just reading posts, posting my own questions, & giving thank-you responses, I won't post on this board any more; I'll keep my opinions, knowledge, & mistakes -- not already posted -- to myself (that will free up a lot of board space for y'alls, & will give me opportunity to use my time for other things -- win-win).

hey MFM

i'm not sure Tim was saying two axes.. unless he was in a vicious mood

stc

Tim,
Wow! I guess, I just don't know anything. I thought you were being straight with me, but, according to Mike, you're holding back the real 'secrets.'

I was under the impression that the chaotic nature of fighting makes it impractical to aim strikes at specific 'vital points.' Rather, I should focus on using whole-body power to strike through the opponent's center of mass for maximum transfer of momentum. Same thing with Chin Na - looking to control the opponent's center. Besides, I would only use these types of techniques as set-ups for a throw, anyway. So, they are not even the primary technique. I only asked about the 'vital points' for the sake of general knowledge. I didn't expect the information to change the way I train. Should it?

Steven