Tim,

How do you keep your internals from getting mixed up with your externals when you cross-train? (Taking internal as defined by pengjin/neijin.)

Given that an application driven by whole body strength and neijin is quite different from an application driven by powerful local muscle, how do you keep the two distinct?

Is it just that you have to have a pretty good grasp of internal before you can cross-train external arts? That would make sense, and make cross-training possible.

But then, supposing an instructor who knows nothing of internal, but is strong, supple, quick, etc., shows you a grappling move, and you experiment with doing it jin-driven, wouldn't the instructor think there was something "wrong" with the way you were doing it, even if it seemed surprisingly effective to him?

I keep my training straight by doing everything according to the same principles (the principles we call "internal" ). Techniques that can't be done according to these principles we don't practice (an exception is made with some sport grappling techniques, as there are weight classes in competition).

I don't look at techniques (or "styles" for that matter) as internal or external, I only look for the principles behind them.

Agreed re. principles. But, suppose when you were learning, say BJJ, wouldn't the instructor have thought the way you were doing x (being presumably subtly different from the way s/he was doing x) was a bit odd? Or didn't s/he notice? Or did you just do it in an external fashion, as taught (for the sake of not causing a fuss), then, so to speak, take it home with you and play about with it until you "got" the internal way of doing it?

(For example, a given joint-lock done internally, jin-driven, is very different from what looks like the same joint lock done externally, with local muscle, right? Wouldn't an experienced instructor who was used to seeing people doing it more in an external way notice if you were doing it internally - especially if they were on the receiving end?)

Cat among the pigeons,

Tim has stated in previous posts (in other threads -- if I understood correctly) that BJJ (either entirely or for the most part) adheres to the same "internal" principles that he's so familiar with. I'll take his word for it (not knowing any different myself; and knowing Tim to be straight-forward on such martial matters).

Theory: If Tim used his understanding of "internal" principles in his BJJ classes from the start while other BJJ beginners used more "external" ways in their approach(es), then Tim stood out as a good student (one who "gets it" ) rather than as an odd-ball or slow learner. Now if Tim was to take a typical Karate class, then his instructor might notice him doing things in a "peculiar" way (since principles like whole-body movement don't necessarily come into play -- especially at the beginning stages... at least in the few beginning classes I've attended).

I hope I never get my internals and my exsternals mixed up, sounds painful!

Mike pretty much summed it up. Good teachers of advanced methods of grappling follow, for the most part, the same principles as good teachers of advanced methods of stand up fighting (the body works the same horizontally as vertically).

Tim, is it true that chi is pure magic, and you have to study with a chinese fellow to understand the mystery, or your brains will boil out your head?

If you'll let me answer this one in Tim's stead...

IT'S ALL TRUE (except for the parts about it being pure magic & having to study with a Chinese fellow to understand the mystery else your brains will boil out of your head).

But what do I know... maybe it's all lies.

P.S.: Such is perhaps best reserved for one of those flame-room non-discussion discussions.

Maybe, or it could be that magic is pure chi.